DeSean Jackson Should Be Looking For Stevie Johnson Money
by JasonB on Feb 10, 2012 10:02 AM EST
in Philadelphia Eagles News
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Yesterday I mentioned that Stevie Johnson is hitting the free agent market next month and that his contract could be a good bench mark for DeSean Jackson's eventual deal. Both were drafted in 2008, they're both the same age and while Johnson has been a later bloomer in his career, both have been well underpaid for what they've produced over the last couple seasons.
Let's take a look at their last two seasons.
DeSean Jackson
2010 - 47 rec, 1056 yards, 6 TDs
2011 - 58 rec, 961 yards, 4 TDs
Stevie Johnson
2010 - 47 rec, 1073 yards, 10 TDs
2011 - 76 rec, 1004 yards, 7 TDs
Johnson has bested DeSean in every category. Plus, he's 6-2, so he's got a size advantage over DeSean as well. And he's never missed a game since becoming a starter in Buffalo. The only real advantage DeSean has in special teams where he's a standout and Johnson doesn't play. That said, DeSean had very little impact on special teams last season with mitigates this difference.
So while we've heard the phrase "Larry FItzgerald money" tossed around in regards to Jackson, that's absurd. He's simply not in Fitzgerald's class and no one is going to pay him like he is. What we should be looking at is Stevie Johnson money. Whatever he gets this offseason should be the benchmark for a DeSean Jackson deal.
The question is when Johnson gets a deal done. Because certainly Johnson's people have to be looking at Jackson as a guy they can use as a springboard for their own negotiations. The Bills have been in talks with Johnson so there's a chance a deal could get done before free agency. However, they're also talking about a franchise tag, which wouldn't help the Eagles at all.
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hmmm
Stevie Johnson, maclin, Steve smith, Jeffrey….one can dream. Great mix of size and speed…
by VRFC8 on Feb 10, 2012 10:06 AM EST via mobile reply actions
rosenhaus?
Who is Johnson’s agent? If he is less of a douche, then the Eagles can get equal production chasing Johnson, and less headache in negotiation. Just have to hope that doesnt sour things so much that the asshole gets Shady to go somewhere else too.
I’d highly doubt that McCoy goes somewhere else just because of DR. He fired him to send him a message that he was not just another one of his boys whom he could manipulate.
Wouldn’t that be a breach of ethics though? That would represent Rosenhaus’ best interests above Shandy’s.
by TommykUD on Feb 10, 2012 4:20 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Don't Forget
Stevie Johnson also drops passes in clutch opportunities for no apparent reason just like DeSean!
Didn’t want to leave out that comparison as well. They’re so similar.
All jokes aside, I would take either of the two on our team.
I was going to point that out as well
But with Stevie Johnson’s height advantage, he’d be a great add for our redzone problems. Adding him with Maclin (who does pretty good in the RZ), celek and Shady……it would be a nightmare for defenses!!
I’m personally hoping we draft Alshon Jeffery to fix our red zone problems.
by Fenton_Hardy on Feb 10, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Steve catches slants in the endzone tho
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disagree
with the notion that Desean wasn’t a factor in special teams; he hurt the team plenty.
Nope.
by bigmeanie08 on Feb 10, 2012 10:32 AM EST via mobile reply actions
finally someone sees the light…jackson was top-5 WR money when he isnt even worth devin hester money.
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Fitz..
Where exactly is it in print tht DeSean is demanding Fits type pay??!! NOWHERE!! Somebody made tht shit up.
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by Dunta Is A PUNK on Feb 11, 2012 10:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
DeSean is better IMO
even if he isn’t putting up the stats… his second year he was killing shit.. tied or broke the record for most 50+ yard TDs and was schooling teams on punt returns too… clearly that head injury messed with him in 2010… but later in the season he was pretty much back to normal, getting that 88 yard TD against the redskins, 4 catches 210? yards and a 91 yarder against the cowboys and getting the PR for miracle at the meadowlands… Plus if he didn’t get injured against the packers in the playoff game we probably win, and he takes that reception in the final 2 minutes to the house instead of getting ankle tackled by the safety
Iunno, personally I would even pay DeSean a salary that could go up to 9M if it motivates him to become more of a complete WR
Just wait until December..
i love how you couldnt even name ONE valuable thing he did for the eagles in 2011.
look at the other WRs who have gotten deals in the past, none of them increase their production, it just doesnt happen. why do you think the birds didnt want to pay Jackson before they absolutely had to? they saw what happened with Holmes and Brandon Marshall, two guys who arent worth half of what they’re being paid.
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“decoy” isnt a categorical stat so it cant be proven on paper, but mccoy doesnt rush for 1300yrs without desean taking a safety and corner deep with him every play. he opens things up for maclin too. dont believe me look back at the games when desean was out and maclin was covered as the primary receiver.
by Eagles swag on Feb 10, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
i hear this excuse ALL the time, and while i see what you are saying, i dont totally buy it. yes, defenses have to pay attention to desean. but when you drop balls at the highest rate in the league, avoid contact at ALL costs (isnt this football?), run backwards/fumble in key moments on special teams, i think the decoy effect is cancelled out and then some. That said, i dont want to pay a decoy like he is a top 5 WR.
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Exactly
if everyone is going to talk about him being a decoy then he shouldn’t be paid that kind of money. Yes, I’m sure he does have an affect for all the other skill positions on the field. But at the same time do we want to pay a guy that is a decoy a shit ton of money.
And when he does get a ball thrown his way it’s about a 50% chance that he’ll drop it anyway.
Stevie Johnson drops passes too. But he is a redzone threat and in this offense that is a threat 4 or 5 times a game!!! That is huge for a team. Jackson is a special teams threat, getting maybe 3 or 4 punts a game and maybe out of those punts 2 returns.
Give me Stevie!
im not saying he should be payed top 5 receiver money either. granted he is my favorite player, but her hasnt earned that money. Yes, he drops alot of balls and avoids contact, i get that and its unacceptable, but in the end id rather have him out on the field doing what he can without risking injury, than at home holding out all season. i think if he accepts around 7.5mil he will go back to the old Desean everyone like. i just hate how quick everyone is to jump on someones shit after a down year thats all. he really did choose the worst yr to have his too
by Eagles swag on Feb 10, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
can you give me one WR who increased production after signing a big deal? because i can name about 10 who didnt…santonio holmes, brandon marshall, tj housh, deion branch (sea), roy e williams, sydney rice, nate burleson, bernard berrian, this list goes on and on and on.
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well outside of the first 3 they are all just average players, but i do get your point, im not arguing that. im arguing that he needs another chance. Everyone knows he played safe for money, not for a lack of skill.
by Eagles swag on Feb 10, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Ever since his first concussion
Jackson has never been the same. He is scared to get hit now like no other.
It’s not just him having one down year either that I want him shipped out. He can’t catch….at all. For a WR that is the #1 job for them….CATCH THE DAMN BALL. He also disappears in the RZ, his value is between the 20’s. Once inside the RZ he is worthless.
That is why I’d rather have Stevie Johnson. Yes, he drops his share of balls as well, but he is at least an option in the RZ! He’s tall and strong. Just think of a inside slant from the 4 to him, easy pitch and catch!!
That is why I’d rather have Stevie Johnson. Yes, he drops his share of balls as well, but he is at least an option in the RZ!
This is the biggest thing. If you’re higest paid WR cant even catch a fuckin pass in the RZ he shouldnt be paid. Desean is a slightly above average PLAYER…..he is quick….that is the only part of him that makes him a WR….everything else he does not have…no hands…no height….no strength….average route runner…..
He is very much so an overrated player.
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by ShadyMcVickFactor on Feb 10, 2012 6:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
And I’m still waiting for proof DeSean or Dru are demanding a Fitz type contract. Thts bullshit some hater made up.
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by Dunta Is A PUNK on Feb 11, 2012 10:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Once you see that on film enough, the defense stops those deep TDs
As was demonstrated most of 2011. I’d take Stevie Johnson over DeSean Jackson.
by donniethelion on Feb 10, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
$2.5 Million
Thats the reported difference in what Johnson and Jackson are asking for. WGR 550 in Buffalo (H/T to PFT) is reporting that Johnson asked for an annual salary of $7.5 million for between 4-5 years during his contract negotiations with the Bills. While there have been reports that Jackson wants something in the range of $10 million.
I’d take either of them if we could get one of them to sign for no more than $7 million. I think Johnson will definitely lower his asking price a bit to play for a “contender” and no disrespect to Buffalo but to also move to a bigger market. Only way that DJax will lower his asking price is to let him walk and discover for himself that he’s not worth as much as he or Drew think. The only person that might possibly give DJax “Fitzgerald money” is Dan Snyder. If that happens more power to him but we have plenty of options in FA or the draft so there’s no reason to overpay.
I would pay Johnson 7.5 mill for that production. I would think a 5 year 37 mill contract with 10-15 guaranteed
by Anders Jensen on Feb 10, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Let Dan Snyder have him
That would be a win for the eagles we get another draft pick, DJack gets paid, and the best part for the Eagles is DC does not have a QB with the arm strenght to take advantage of his speed
by Forever eagle green on Feb 11, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
This is the absolute WORST year for DeSean to attempt to play contractual hardball
Between free agency and the draft the options are crazy at WR.
http://www.onesheet.com/ghoztman
Along with playing like a pussy on the field!
He just didn’t play this game right this season and it’s coming back to hurt him I think.
Johnson has bested DeSean in every category.
Because you chose to ignore 2008 and 2009, and chose to not count Desean’s rushing yards which would more than make up for the 60 yard difference in 2010+2011?
Plus, he’s 6-2, so he’s got a size advantage over DeSean as well.
Let’s just overlook that DeSean might have his own set of advantages, such as speed.
And he’s never missed a game since becoming a starter in Buffalo.
So that means Desean has more yards per game every season. Frankly, if Desean having two short term injuries in 4 seasons, one of which was from an illegal hit, makes him injury prone, then we should also be calling out nearly every offensive player who has been out more than him (Maclin, Peters, Vick, Herremans, J. Jackson, W. Justice)
I agree with JasonB that Desean should seek a more reasonable contract and that he’s not Fitzgerald, but still I just don’t get the relentless devaluation of DeSean that happens all over this forum.
haha relentless devaluation? i dont get the “pay the man at any cost” BS half of you guys are spewing. you guys talk about 2008-09 like it happened yesterday. he drops balls like its going out of style, didnt get deep ONE TIME all season, ran backwards more than forward on punt returns, cost us the bears game with that fumble, and dropped 2 TDs against the pats. oh and the eagles finished one game back in the NFC east.
how many more yards would Stevie Johnson have if he were in an offense that passes it 80% of the time? quit the Jackson love affair, it’ll only make it easier when the eagles kick his ass to the curb.
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Most of us who like DeSean have not said pay at any cost… and are you FREAKING KIDDING ME… picking out plays where Desean hurts us last year and acting like he should be axed for that when nearly every player on the team should be cut under that reasoning. Do you remember how many terrible blunders by different players killed the team?
Didn’t get deep “ONE TIME”? Except in the Washington game… and again this is a way fans like to systematically ignore Desean’s contributions. “He’s a one trick pony… he can only catch bombs.” So that now last season when he doesn’t catch bombs but still puts up 900+ yards it’s “he didn’t get deep all season”.
Desean had a few blunders in the middle of games that were far from decided… whereas you want to keep Maclin who blew THREE GAME WINNING DRIVES himself!??!! Celek and Avant also had terrible drops that cost us dearly. The O-linemen had penalties at the worst times. Veteran defenders like Parker, Nnamdi and Babin had offsides penalties that killed us in multiple games near the end. That’s comparable to a timely drop IMO.
no, im not kidding you by picking out plays, there were a ton of them. this guy was maddening to watch last season. taking plays off, dropping balls, penalties, fumbles, it never stopped. oh and i forgot, jackson did get deep once last year, only prob was he threw the ball at perry fewell and cost us 65 yards. did i mention we finished one game back? and now you want to pay this guy like he is one of your best players? he DETRACTED from the teams success last season, no question in my mind.
trust me, maclin and avant both drove me nuts this past season, but we are stuck with those guys next year and they dont cost our team anything compared to what jackson is demanding. would you sign jackson to a 5 year $50 million deal? because thats what he wants and short of that this debate is useless. you will tell me how good you think he is, but not for $10mm, and i’ll tell you that $10mm is way too much for a decoy…
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How can you be upset at Maclin?
He’s a completely different receiver then Jackson.
Jackson showboats after catching the ball, well because it hardly every happens. Remember, I don’t remember who it was against this past season. But he had a nice grab for like 30 yards, but got a 15 yard flag because he celebrated too much after finally holding onto the ball (threw or handed it to the other teams coach I believe).
Also, Maclin is a much more reliable receiver. He won’t put up the flashy numbers often, but I’d rather have a guy that will get 5 catches for 76 yards and a TD then a guy that will disappear for 3 games and then finally have a 4 reception game for 134 yards and a TD. Maclin is the consistent threat that every team wishs they have.
Maclin also isn’t a diva and immature brat that thinks he is owed soemthing. He does his job and doesn’t complain. Jackson said the contract wouldn’t bother him at all this season, well I think we all can agree that he let it get to him. It’s not like the Eagles owed it to him. He’s all about speed and when that is gone he will be worth less then he is now. In 3 or 4 years he will be done.
Against the Giants
he flipped the ball to Coughlin and brushed his shoulders off cause he a pimp
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Lol I actually thought it was funny
I mean he is paid to play a game I dont understand why Goodell is anti celebration
"There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail, should we fall, we will know that we have lived.--"Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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I'm not saying it isn't funny
but it’s the rules and he knows them. Why hurt do something like that when you know it’s going to hurt the team. That is were his immaturity has got him in trouble.
There
have been a ton of these kind of calls though from a lot of different players. You know I find it rather interesting that a guy can get a sack and celebrate but a WR does it and it flagged.
I agree with you
but a WR can celebrate a TD. Why celebrate a simple catch? I suppose I can see why Jackson would celebrate a catch, since it is something for him to celebrate about.
A sack is a TD for a defensive lineman.
Stevie Johnson
had like a penalty for excessive celebrating in almost every game he caught a TD
Just wait until December..
It's simple
Between the 20 Jackson is the biggest threat in the NFL. Once in the redzone he is worthless! The Eagles can move the ball up and down the field, they’ve proven that. They have issues once they get inside the 20 yard line. Give Vick a big guy to throw to, a guy who has some strength and weight to throw around down there.
Maclin does pretty good in the RZ for his size, match him up with Stevie and it would be a killer combo. Free up running lanes for both Shady and Vick and give more options for Celek as well.
Jackson is talented, but the place where we need the most help he brings nothing to the table.
That doesn’t seem like a good reason to get rid of him. Get a redzone specialist who is slow but can make tough catches and go up for the ball and replace DeSean with him inside the 20. Then you have the most dangerous down-field threat in the league and a redzone specialist.
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by AnthroEagle on Feb 10, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
But Johnson can help in both areas
You’ve seen the numbers above that JasonB posted. Johnson still gets his catches and yards between the 20’s he doesn’t disappear. Jackson totally disappears in the redzone.
Johnson would be a much more valuable asset to our team then Jackson. I also think that Johnsons numbers would go up playing in our offense then playing in Buffalo. Johnson would be closer to 1,200 yards with us I’d think, we pass more and are more wide open.
There is a flip side to that
Granted Stevie stats are better but let us be honest not by much. Actually your argument kind of destroys its self in some regards. Did Djax take plays off, yep. Did Djax play timid, yep. Did Djax have mistakes and drops, yep. With all of that said Stevie only put up 44 more yards and 3 more TD’s then Jackson. Also something to keep in mind that Djax did it with a much more potent offensive team… not to shabby. So one can make the argument that if Djax played harder in One or Two games his stats would have been better or equal to. I think the problem is getting the most out of Djax not the caliber of player that he is.
You just destroyed some of your argument
You said that “Also something to keep in mind that Djax did it with a much more potent offensive team”. So now put Stevie in this more potent offense, his number would be even higher, right? I’m thinking in this offense Stevie would be a 1,200 yard and 8-10 TD guy every year.
Also you use the points of Jackson taking plays off and playing timid to prove your point. I’m sorry but I don’t want a guy on my team that does that, and you using those points to prove your point tells me you were really struggling for points to back up your argument.
No not at all
I was not making an argument I said there was a flip side to it. And logic would dictate that in order for Steveie to be the player that he is he needs more receptions to put up pretty similar numbers to Djax as indicated by his 13.3 Avg compare to Djax’s 16.6. Steveie had 28 MORE receptions if we gave Djax the same amount of receptions at 16.6 a pop that would equal another 464.8 yards crushing Stevie’s 1004 for the year.
You might not like Djax’s attitude or “lack of heart” but the man does produce and he is a good football player. You can sight his immaturity as a reason for not wanting him but even at his worst Steveie is only slightly better on paper.
I understand what you're saying
But put Stevie on this offense for a second. The Eagles are a pass happy offense, much more then the Bills are. Not by much but they still pass more. And with someone like Stevie in the RZ a tall strong guy that isn’t afraid to get hit……it’s helps to solve that problem as well.
I hear you
But in that case I would rather have Marquses Colston 6’5 and used to playing with a 6 foot QB with a big arm.
I agree with you there
But I think anyone would rather have Colston. I was just arguing between Jackson and Johnson.
I’m not the biggest fan of Jackson I think everyone knows that. I think last season he was just off. But he’s also shown some bad things. He ducks away from contact, still can’t catch, bad route running and in the RZ he doesn’t exist at all. If we resign him, fine, I know what to expect. But I think their are much better and more complete options available.
Also the reason
I pointed out that Djax did it on a more potent offensive team is because Stevie would have a hard time seeing that 76 receptions in Philly especially if Brent gets going early and/or another TE is bought in. Clay is another threat at TE the guy has good speed and hands. The fact of the matter is that we are rather stacked on Offense in the skill areas which adds the POSITIVE argument for Djax because he posted number comparable to Stevie’s with less.
Yes but we need the help in the RZ
Johnson will still do just as good as Jackson between the 20’s, maybe not with huge gains but with smaller, more consistent gains. But in the RZ where the Eagles are terrible he will help immensely! He will fight for the ball, Jackson will duck and hide if anyone is near him.
I’m fine if Jackson comes back at a reasonable price, but he better get his head out of his ass. But I’d be even happier dropping him and getting Johnson in his place. Their numbers will be about the same, but I think Johnson will help much more in the RZ, where Jackson disappears all the time.
I can respect that
and do see your point but I do like other free agent WR’s if we are talking Red Zone difference makers
I'm talking about the whole package
RZ is just one of my arguments. Johnson will still give you the 1000 yards and show up every Sunday. Jackson disappears for half of the games and in the RZ. Johnson is a more complete receiver, maybe not as explosive but definitely more complete.
I hear you but
Stevie is not some one you have to really game plan for; Djax got Matt Dodge fired!!! I mean I am not disagreeing with you about the taking games off but Djax almost got a 1000 in his sleep we are literally talking two catches here. I would rather the intangibles that Djax brings or a true stud at WR then give the money to SJ.
Anyone would love to have a stud WR
but between Jackson and Johnson I personally see more value in Johnson on this team.
We throw it around like crazy and having a big fast guy in this offense it would be huge.
I guess we agree to disagree.
I don’t really count rushing yards because they’re not significant here and they’re more a function of scheme. Matthew if Johnson played here he’d get more reverses.
And frankly, I’m not interested in paying Jackson for what he did 4 years ago.
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by JasonB on Feb 10, 2012 12:56 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I said it on another thread, but even if Jackson agrees to a contract that he’s worth, I kinda don’t even want us to sign him. I know it sounds crazy and he was such a good player in 2009, and he is one of the faces of the franchise, but I just would rather we get another WR via the draft or the FA.
There are a multitude of reasons for this: regardless of what I said, I really doubt Jackson will agree to an appropriate contract, he’s small and i’d rather us get a big strong and physical reciever, he’s production has tailed off ever since the concussion which makes me think that it could affect him for the rest of his career, in a year where he should have been playing his hear out, he didn’t; way too many drops, way too many half assed routes, etc.
I would not be upset at all if they just released him (not even franchise him), and drafted Sanu with the Kolb pick.
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the jackson hating
doesn’t come from his lack of skill. Everyone on here agrees that he is a game changer. It’s good attitude, thinking he is gods gift to football and his lack of production last year that brought about all the jackson devaluation. If the kid stepped up and played ball last year, I’d have signed him at 9 mil no problem. Now, id say 6 or 7 tops structured so we can cut his ass if he doesn’t get back to performing.
by Eaglessfan on Feb 10, 2012 11:38 AM EST via mobile reply actions
people still attacked his attitude before last year… they’d say he can’t catch passes in the middle even though he does. He doesn’t hustle, even though he’s chased down defenders after interceptions many times and even has two forced fumbles!! They say he doesn’t show up in the playoffs even though he nearly won the NFCCG (thanks defense, Akers) and was a shoelace tackle away from icing the GB playoff game. They say he doesn’t help in the clutch even when he iced the greatest comeback in NFL history etc…
I think the difference between DeSean and Stevie Johnson is the first Cowboys game this year. The Cowboys parked their safeties 30 yards off the line of scrimmage because they were terrified of getting beaten deep by DeSean. That left the intermediate zones wide open for Celek and Avant to operate. They were targeted 14 times in that game, and made 12 catches for 168 yards. Plus, with 7-man fronts, Shady went off for 180 on the ground.
DeSean only had 3 catches for 31 yards that night, but he did his job just by suiting up. Johnson’s numbers are definitely better. There’s little debate there. But no defensive coordinator is ever going to think "If we’re going to win this game we have to stop Stevie Johnson."
Isn’t the whole Desean Jackson “decoy” theory a bit played out at this point? I mean, a ton of good offenses don’t have a Desean Jackson, and they manage perfectly fine. I mean, isn’t it a bit strange to pay someone 7~ mill a year to be an offensive decoy? (I know that isn’t his primary job, but it’s one of the reasons I won’t be upset if leaves; he really is a one trick pony)
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the decoy thing is the most played out excuse i’ve ever heard. either way, if desean’s number one quality is that he is a decoy, do you really want to pay him like hes one of the best in the league?
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I have never ever seen a defense play there safeties 30 yards back before that game against the Cowboys.
by Anders Jensen on Feb 10, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
answer the question- do you want to pay a decoy $7mm? how about $10mm? because thats what this kid wants. you really think that he is the best use of $7-10 million? use your brain
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$7 million for DeSean? Absolutely, sign me up. $10mil? Not so much. But DeSean is absolutely worth $7mil, go ahead and check out some other WR contracts, such as Hester and Josh Cribbs — DeSean is worth $7mil all day.
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by AnthroEagle on Feb 10, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
decoy seemed to be strictly this season based on him not wanting to take contact over the middle without money. if hes payed, he goes back to doing what he did every year in his career except this yr
by Eagles swag on Feb 10, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
I would give Jackson 7-8 mill per year
by Anders Jensen on Feb 10, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
agreed Jimmy K… the bomb to Jackson seems to be the #1 things that most teams fear when playing the Eagles. When McCoy ran all over the #1 ranked run D, even the announcers were commenting how having two safeties 30 yards away from the line of scrimmage was probably a significant part of that. We saw what can happen when teams stack the LOS and make McCoy a high priority (See MIA, NYG and NE games where his YPC was terrible). It’s a chess match… the number Desean, McCoy and Maclin put up week to week will depend heavily on who the defense tries to stop.
Didn't Mr. all-world cb from the Jets
Say that Stevie Johnson was the hardest receiver he’s had to cover? I would think if the best cb in the league respects this guy, so do defensive coordinators
by green_pete_trucking on Feb 10, 2012 12:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The cowboys
also have the worst secondary in the league. They have to do that to make up for their lack of skill. Most other teams wouldn’t come close to doing that.
Also,
DeSean wasn’t a very effective decoy against: The Patriots, Bears, 49ers, Cardinals, Seahawks, Dolphins, Bills, etc.
by UnclaimedFright on Feb 10, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
People are also being a little bit too hard on his "lack of effort"...
Want to hear an interesting stat? DeSean Jackson had six tackles this year. SIX TACKLES. He’s (maybe) 5’9" and 170lbs, doesn’t play special teams, and managed to make six tackles. And several of those saved TDs because nobody else could catch the DB or LB running down the field with the INT return. And those tackles aren’t too shabby for a player who allegedly doesn’t like contact. DeSean had a down year, but he’s a damn good player and I hope both sides do everything possible to put him in an Eagles jersey next season.
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by AnthroEagle on Feb 10, 2012 12:21 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
i think one of those tackles was on the punt fumble against the bears….wow what a tough guy, always playing his little heart out.
NOW HIRING- NFL HEAD COACH
Shit like this
Makes me want the Eagles to re-sign him just to piss off people like you. It’ll be interesting to see how many people go back to loving him and how many start rooting for him to fail.
Formerly DeSean10
36-5-20-JJ -- Forever Bleeding Green
Team Kuechly, J. Jenkins, Iloka
by AnthroEagle on Feb 10, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
haha come on man i’ll never root for an eagle to fail, not that kind of fan. just a realistic guy who doesnt think Jackson is nearly as important to the eagles as some of you do. i’ll be disappointed if they break the bank for him but obviously wont stop rooting for the birds.
NOW HIRING- NFL HEAD COACH
I don’t want them to break the bank either. DeSean is a very good player who has certain limitations. He’s not gonna be an all-around star, but he brings speed that is nearly impossible to match up with. If we can keep a deal under $8 mil per year then I think he’s worth it. I really want to see him back here, but I also think we can find some decent replacements for him.
Formerly DeSean10
36-5-20-JJ -- Forever Bleeding Green
Team Kuechly, J. Jenkins, Iloka
by AnthroEagle on Feb 10, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
see? i knew you weren’t crazy. our birds just need to realize there are always other options, and that Desean is not the be-all-end-all of the eagles’ success. the issue for me comes in deciding whether it makes sense to pay jackson or find viable LB replacements. id rather spend at LB and sign someone like robert meachem who wont command more than $5mm per year.
NOW HIRING- NFL HEAD COACH
The situations are different for them though.
Stevie Johnson just doesn’t draw the coverage that Desean does, which should be mentioned in the analysis of Desean (He put up identical numbers despite drawing heavier coverage). I think Stevie Johnson is a good WR but he has the “drops” sometimes as Desean does an also i’m not sure how fast he is but im sure it’s not as fast as Desean. Desean should be paid a step above the Stevie Johnsons of the world IMO.
And Jackson runs faster
that is one thing that he does better then Johnson.
But tell me, we have RZ issues we all know that. Johnson would help in that area. Wouldn’t you want to improve that area if you can. And replacing Jackson with Johnson would probably help that situation. And Johnson will still give you the yards that Jackson always did, but also deliver the TD’s.
We have
A lot of size for the red zone, we could always go to a two TE set Clay is 6’3. also Steve did his damage with 28 more receptions. Please stop acting like we are comparing Djax to Megatron.
When did I once say anything about Megatron?
I know he had more receptions then Jackson that’s your only argument. But having another big guy in the RZ never hurt anyone did it?
Jackson is useless down there, have you ever watched a game? He disappears inside the 20. Johnson can play all over the field and be effective. Not just between the 20’s but in the RZ as well.
He’s no Megatron, but I never said that. But he’s leaps and bounds better then Jackson in the RZ. You might as well play Chad Hall in the RZ over Jackson.
Are you serious
I did not say you you were talking about Megatron but you are acting like SJ is some Red Zone savant., he had 7 TDs Woooo, to put that in perspective Gloxico had 45 rec for 612 at 13.6 a pop with 8 TDs with Mark Sanchez as a QB.
Yes He is taller and more physical but far from the end of our Red Zone woes, in that same accord he cannot take the top off of a secondary either.
If you can get Djax at reasonable money I would rather keep him and the respect (when he is not being dickish) that his speed and big play elusiveness brings and run a two TE set in the vein of NE’s Gronk and Hernandez with Brent and Clay for the Red Zone.
I have watched plenty of games and the fact of the matter is that there are very few if any WR’s with the sheer top end speed and elusiveness that Djax encompasses. 16.6 and almost a thousand yards is pretty good for some who took the year off.
I would also like to mention that by mid Dec. 2011 Buffalo was only converting 33 percent of there Red Zone trips to TDs so yeah…
I see all of your points
But it’s Buffalo you’re talking about. What other threat do they have other then Johnson? Look at what we already have, Maclin, Celek, Shady, Vick and Harbor…..adding Johnson to that mix is brutal for a defense to cover. In Buffalo you only had to worry about Johnson. Besides Vick is better then Harvard grad in Buffalo….especially when you take into account Vicks scrambling in the RZ.
No Johnson can’t take the top off like Jackson, nobody can. But with Johnson we will have more and better options for this offense. he can still go deep and may not outrun everyone, but he can still out jump and fight for the ball better then Jackson.
I know he won’t solve all of our RZ woes, but he will help. Another big tall guy in that small of an area is a huge weapon. Which Jackson is not.
I see what you’re saying about Plaxico, but do you understand what you’re saying? Get a big physical receiver and throw it up……even Sanchez can do it. That is something we can do with Johnson as well. But he’ll also give you the 1,200 yard season along with those 8-10 TDs.
Also
even though you say “Jackson disappears completely” the defenses must not know that; because how many times have we seen the Eagles run Jackson on a quick slant route with more than one defender following jackson leaving Celek,Avant, Smith, Maclin wide open?
That decoy in the RZ can be replace so easily!
Speed in the RZ doesn’t mean as much, so that point you made means nothing.
Speed in the RZ doesn’t mean as much?
You can’t be serious with that statement, some of the best RZ WR’s are quick-fast guys (Wes Welker, Steve Smith, Darren Sproles, Victor Cruz, Santana Moss, Mike Wallace Etc.) There is more than just one way to be a RZ WR in the NFL. And to your point of the decoy being replaced, NFL defenses aren’t going to overcompensate for just any player you have to have a special skillset to be singled out by defenses. How would you replace Desean “so easily”? Spend a Top 15 pick, sign a top WR in FA, neither of those are “easy” things.
Quick-fast is so much different then fast
Quick is great in the RZ, that does help. But with Jackson you have a guy that doesn’t want to get hit. And in the RZ everything is condensed we all know that. That is why he is ineffective and because he’s a small guy. And I can’t believe you’re comparing Welker and the rest of those guys to Jackson. They are all much more complete receivers then Jackson, they can all catch, good route runners and team players. They also show up in the RZ Jackson doesn’t.
In the RZ Jackson can easily be replaced. He’s not a strong player, down there you have to be, can’t shy away from contact and you have to fight for the ball. All things Jackson won’t or just can’t do.
So to your statement, yeah I am serious. Speed helps with more space. Quickness is great in the RZ because it’s condensed down there. That is why a QB that can throw it in tight spots is so great in the RZ because everyone is just closer to everyone else. So Jackson having speed, yeah that helps in the open field but doesn’t do much inside the 4 yard line when you’re being pressed. That’s where strength, quickness and wanting the ball comes into play.
Quick/ Fast. I didn't mean them as one thing (quick-fast).
But with Jackson you have a guy that doesn’t want to get hit
Welker isn’t taking many shots either but that almost has little to do with RZ catching, its all about being able to get open with little space and Jackson is certainly hard to guard head on so most times they have to bracket coverage in the rz or have a man over/underneath him.
And I can’t believe you’re comparing Welker and the rest of those guys to Jackson
I deleted my first post so I had to retype it, I left a sentence out “You can say Desean lacks in the Redzone but to say Speed isn’t as important in the RZ is wrong” and the WR I gave are all Quick/Fast type of WR in the RZ that are effective so your point of speed being less important would be right with Desean but wrong as an overall rule.
they can all catch, good route runners and team players
This may be the case but that doesn’t change how they get open in the
RZ, they sure don’t Catch Fade Routes in the RZ like the 6’3 and up WR’s do so they still use their speed/quickness to be effective which is my whole point of naming others that have been successful using what you said isnt important.
So to your statement, yeah I am serious. Speed helps with more space. Quickness is great in the RZ because it’s condensed down there. That is why a QB that can throw it in tight spots is so great in the RZ because everyone is just closer to everyone else. So Jackson having speed, yeah that helps in the open field but doesn’t do much inside the 4 yard line when you’re being pressed. That’s where strength, quickness and wanting the ball comes into play.
You do realize Speed isnt just up and down, it also goes laterall (laterall speed, laterall Quickness). Desean has them so he can be an effective Weapon in the RZ he just has to get better and so does the QB throwing in the RZ (TB or Eli could throw to Desean in the RZ). Speed does help with space it also helps with little space becuase it can give that extra room needed (as having strength or size can). Desean is not good in the RZ but that doesn’t mean he can’t be used or a player with a similar skillset can’t be successfull.
You keep going back to quick/speed
Jackson is all speed but is he quick? If he was wouldn’t he get more opportunities in the RZ? If he is so quick he’d get open more down there. Besides he’s afraid of contact and in the RZ you have linebackers looming everywhere. Something over the middle to him, he won’t catch.
Desean Jackson isnt good in the RZ
But he IS quick and he IS fast. How do you not know if Desean Jackson is quick by now? He is just too fragile (or he plays like it) I never said he was a good RZ target, I said it isn’t impossible for him to be used given the right QB and or playcalling (to which we have neither in the RZ). Just because Desean isn’t good in the RZ doesnt mean another player who is Quick as well as Fast can’t be used, those were my points. Now if the problem is strictly RZ then you sign Plax (after franchisng D-Jax) and maybe draft another Tall WR in the draft, problem solved. It isn’t rocket science in the RZ its execution, things usually get simplified in the RZ.
I'll take him back at the right price
There are some on the extremes in this thread, but most comments lean toward taking him back but not overpaying. I think that the FO has more leverage at this point, and do not think that they will overpay.
1) There are plenty of other options out there both in free agency and the draft.
2) I think that the sulking did hurt his market value. I attribute this to immaturity mostly, which is something that he can overcome. I don’t see it as a given that he’d be a disruptive influence in the locker room going forward.
So, it will come down to whether they can agree on price (Duh!). I’m OK with either outcome, as long as we do not overpay.
Go Eagles!
DeSean will be out of the league in 3 years.
Discuss.
I would like to thank my hands for being so great, for allowing me to type this post.
by corn on the kolb on Feb 10, 2012 1:09 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Only if he signs with the NFC South
And has to play against Dunta Robinson twice a year. Headhunting douchebag.
by UnclaimedFright on Feb 10, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Wrong
Discussion over.
Formerly DeSean10
36-5-20-JJ -- Forever Bleeding Green
Team Kuechly, J. Jenkins, Iloka
And what skills does it bring outside of having blazing speed?
He’s not an excellent route runner. He doesn’t have gifted hands, or even adequate hands. He doesn’t have size in the red zone or over the middle. He doesn’t catch in traffic well due to a concussion fear.
What exactly makes you think that getting paid will change that?
So, his choices are to either self-preserve and have a lack-luster career being a role-player in a specific style of offense (Go deep, rinse, repeat) or he can sell out his body, get injured, and risk losing his only ability.
He’ll get a short incentive deal that he’ll push himself to make. This year or next he’ll be hurt. Year 3 he’ll show he’s unable to recover, and becomes a cautionary tale about drafting undersized sized offensive weapons and giving them contracts.
I would like to thank my hands for being so great, for allowing me to type this post.
by corn on the kolb on Feb 10, 2012 5:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
As Dave Hester would say:
Yuuuuuup!
Formerly BWestFactor
FLY #7 FLY !
by ShadyMcVickFactor on Feb 10, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
If assholes had wings, this place would be an airport right now.
End of the day, if we can get DeSean to stay for a reasonable amount of money, then we need to keep him. If he refuses to sign for anything less than Fitz money, then we have to let him go.
The guy’s a unique talent who can change the outcome of a game at the drop of a hat. That said, he’s not Larry.
AR should have to wear a Flava Flav necklace until he learns how to manage a clock.
I am the proud target of temper tantrums.
The guy’s a unique talent who can change the outcome of a game at the drop of a hat
And what about the other 10 games where he is almost a non-factor? Your best WR SHOULD be able to catch TD in the RZ. He SHOULD be able to catch a ball in the middle of the field. I mean, we keep saying that he’s this “rare talent”, but all I see is speed. That is simply not enough….unless youre a #3 or #4 guy on the team.
Formerly BWestFactor
FLY #7 FLY !
by ShadyMcVickFactor on Feb 10, 2012 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
.
i know this is risky, but i think that maybe we let desean walk. we’re all assuming he’s going to go somewhere else and sign a big contract. what if he no one offers him a monster deal. with a deep wr pool in free agency and a pretty good rookie class it is certainly possible especially after his down year. i think that there is a good chance that all of this talk of “larry fitzgerald money” won’t last very long once the market opens up and that we should be able to bring him back on a reasonable contract. that or we could sign stevie johnson. i’m cool with that too
All we need to do is not use DJax in the RZ situation, should he remain. Take out Steve Smith and grab a big WR for Smith’s money, and use him for RZ situations and possibly throw in some rotation between him and Avant. The only time DJax does not play is RZ. I also like Riley Cooper over Steve Smith, and he does go up the middle in the crowd, he’s been used only sparingly.
by EaglesHeat on Feb 10, 2012 6:30 PM EST via Android app reply actions
For me signing Djax over whatever wr is on the market is a no brainer
but not for 10 mil. he has to earn that kind of money which i believe he may one day if he brings it every game. i think he’s trying to be hard-nosed bout the bargaining now but eventually will come back down to earth and hopefully sign for 7-8.5 mil. i would HATE to see this guy go seeing that he’s become another face for this franchise. What we could use is another redzone threat (Plaxico sounds great since he really WANTS to play here) with Maclin out there. Djax Maclin and Plax, that spells terror for the defenses to me.
"If you’re afraid to fail, then you’re probably going to fail. You know what I mean? Fuck it." -- Kobe "Black Mamba" Bryant
Are you people kidding me? PAY DA MAN NOW!!!!!!!!!!!
Did you not watch the games? How many f**king times was Vick in a position to get the ball down field?
Put that shit on Vick 100%!
All Vick did was put the blame on the O-line.
Oh yea and when injury prone Vick was out how many times was our backup QB (mr dream team himself) Vince Young in a position to get the ball down field?
Vick played awful! Let me say that again, VICK PLAYED AWFUL!
How the f**k can a WR play good if the QB can’t do a fucking thing but act like he’s a running back?
Could Jackson throw the ball to himself?
The 4 man rush had Vick in a panic attack! Can you imagen if he was being blitzed?
The only reason McCoy did good was because he runs the fucking ball, he don’t have to put his faith in Vicks hands.
100Mil for Vick and you stupid fans are cool with that? The worst move in Eagles history!
60Mil for a so called “elite” cb and gets burned with no problem even in man coverage! You fans are cool with that?
All this BULLSHIT talk that he’s not Larry Fitzgerald money ! Are you kidding me?
Even Fitzgerald would suck if he had to work with Vick.
If Fitzgerald had to play with Vick I’ll bet he would run back to Skelton in a heart beat and that’s that Skelton sucks! We should of kept Kolb and drafted a 1st round QB.
The difference between Kolb and Vick was that both are going nowhere but one give the illusion that he is.
Why did Djax play bad this year?
#1. Vick played bad this year
#2. Reid game planned bad this year
#3. Lurie fucked Djax over this year
It’s a combination of events that make up the big picture
but you idiots only see #3 on that list.
The way I look at things it's going to go like this:
1. The Eagles DON’T resign Desean, we’re all happy we got rid of the headache but we now need a WR… There’s a deep, deep market in FA and a deep Rookie class of WR’s coming up, the Eagles realize what Desean brings to the table but he’s not irreplaceable.
2. The Eagles DO resign Desean, we’re all happy we have our game-changer and there’s little to no change at the WR position, but if Desean continues to play like he did in 2011 then we’ve either set ourselves back or remained stagnant.
Defensive player of the year for 2011 is...
Wild_Eagle!
Yes, Wild_Eagle's infamous reputation did help him get this award. But he shows that he walks the talk that he serves...with his keyboard. Wild_Eagle protects the motherland (BGN) from the evils of noobs, douche-bags, and other assholes. Although he may be crude and unnecessary, all great defenders draws the yellow flag from time to time.
-Awarded by Number5
Wild_Eagles’ Heart is scarier than Hell, you lose. - d-jackfan10 at the troll known as vicksuck!
don't be so dramatic
“we’re all happy we got rid of the headache”? save the drama dude!
The headache is Vick.
What did Jackson say that made him this so-called “headache” ask for his money?
We could sign Cruz,Colston,Fitz,Johnson,Nicks, Marshall, Jennings,Wayne,White etc, and Vick would find a way to make them look like a shit!
Dumb as people we don’t need any WR improvements, we are stacked at WR with Jackson,Maclin,Avant, Smith &Cooper. Other teams in the league would dream to just have Jackson & Maclin.
What we need is a QB that knows how to read the blitz and knows how to handle it.
A football team is only as good as it’s captain. In football the QB is the captain.
With all due respect I fucking hate fans like you that get caught up in the drama " boo hoo hoo Jackson’s a cancer, Jackson’s overated, Jackson a thug etc…" but you lack evidence so you make the shit up.
But I bet the day at “Miracle at the Meadowlands” fans like you would of licked Jackson’s balls sweat.
All I’m saying is Put Vick under that same microscope that you put Jackson under and you would see where Jacksons problems come from.
BTW QB’s are very important! With all the talent in the 2012 draft, who do you think is going to be the 1st overall pick? ANDREW LUCK to the Colts! Expect the Colts to have a good year!
You're being rather contadicting
One one hand you impugn everyone here as if they detest Djax and are throwing his previous contributions out the window. On the other hand you’re assailing Michael Vick and throwing him under the bus labeled the “2011 Debacle.” Many factors come into play when a team falls short of expectations, and MANY deeper issues plague a team that miserably fails. I bet many of the fans here would hate to see a face of this franchise depart. However, the money alone is not the issue. It’s not simply “stop bitching about Djax’s 10 million request.” Many fans have the right to fear what COULD happen once that money is paid. Look, I love Djax and everything he brings and would HATE to see him go, but the issue is that his inconsistency to do many things such as not up the middle, avoid tacklers, and disappear in the RZ, aren’t in accordance to the contract he desires. His asking price and his lack of consistency don’t mesh and incur doubt from many fans.
The headache is Vick.
Our O-line was a MAJOR concern heading into the season. Hell many of us saw the glaring weaknesses in it in the damn preseason. When your O-line fails to hold up and your QB has little to no option but to scramble after being bum rushed on nearly every other play, and is getting slammed left and right, he’s apparently a headache.
VICK PLAYED AWFUL!
You must clearly be delusional under that curtain of hate. He spent quite a bit of the season with multiple injuries thanks to the incompetence of our O-line. Yes he had some bad plays and some bad games overall, but he made adjustments. Did you watch the Jets game at all? The first Dallas matchup? He arguably had some of his finest performances of his CAREER this year despite an O-line that began to play decent late in the year and overcoming some injuries. He’s never been pocket QB like some other elite QB’s a la TB. the Mannings, Rodgers or Brees, but what you sure like to forget that those QB’s didn’t have to deal with abominable O-lines and aren’t getting bum-rushed nearly every other play. Hell they all have decent to great O-lines that do their job and protect their QB. Despite all that, Vick still gets the job done. He’s the best combo of QB/RB arguably in history. Yes he didn’t give us an encore of his MVP-deserving 2010 season, but he still had a heck of year with what he had to endure. And yet you promulgate he played “awful.” Ask Rex Ryan or Jason Garrett and they’ll tell you how awful he played.
Dumb as people we don’t need any WR improvements, we are stacked at WR
Yes we have a decent lineup of WR’s to work with but to say we can’t make improvements in that area is ludicrous. THERE’S ALWAYS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT. Yes we have a decent range of WR’s to utilize but how many of them are dependable most of the majority, Avant and Maclin are perhaps the only ones. Cooper is still struggles at times and Smith doesn’t make a large enough impact. Outside of Mac, we have NO WR that is a RZ threat. We don’t have a tall tough WR who’s going to fight in the RZ to make the catch and make Vick’s life easier. Djax disappears in the RZ due to his size and his reluctance to fight through bodies for the ball. Speed alone doesn’t get it done in a condensed endzone. People are simply clamoring for a WR that can bring the size and toughness required in the RZ AND be able to catch the damn ball at a consistent rate. Djax certainly isn’t consistent in that field.
Not many want Djax to get shipped. Yes he’s a game changer, a helluva threat for the defense just by being on the field. However, through his first 3 seasons, his cons (refusal to run up the middle, avoiding the tackle, disappearing in the RZ and inconsistent effort through games) are beginning to outweigh his pros, and by demanding 10 mill, equivalent to another player who has kept his play in adherence to his salary, Desean isn’t making a strong case for himself. He said that the contract wouldn’t impede his performance, but it’s clearly obviously he was encumbered with the whole ordeal. Rather than playing hard as hell to at least prove he deserved the contract and expel most of our doubts as well as advertise himself for the upcoming FA class, he underperformed and threw in the towel in many of the games and his body language spoke for him if he didn’t himself. No one wants to pay a player who’s going to decide when HE wants to play or disappear. We ask for continuity and a dedication to get the job done, even if we have to settle for a WR with less speed and game-changing ability.
"If you’re afraid to fail, then you’re probably going to fail. You know what I mean? Fuck it." -- Kobe "Black Mamba" Bryant
excuse me for the grammer mistakes, getting no sleep doesn't help
"If you’re afraid to fail, then you’re probably going to fail. You know what I mean? Fuck it." -- Kobe "Black Mamba" Bryant
"but what you sure like to forget that those QB’s didn’t have to deal with abominable O-lines and aren’t getting bum-rushed nearly every other play"
1st of all that’s bullshit, The Giants had problems with the O-Line this year and still managed to win the f**king SB! Stop making excuses for Vick already.
Do you know what Eli did? Unlike Vick, Eli pick up the blitz, then he got rid of the ball quick! Eli did not wait for some big play to open, he just got rid of if for some short possitive yardage.
You missed the point but you did acknowlege that Vick played bad but you put most of his blame on the O-Line right? So in other words Vick can’t do his job because of a weak O-line so than how the f**k is Jackson suppost to have success? Should Jackson throw and catch his own ball? Also, lets stop all this BS that Jackson does not go up the middle! Did Andy ever say that? Jackson does not draw up the plays. Andy draws up the plays. Maybe Andy does not want to send him up the middle in fear of Jackson getting another concusion. What ever the reason take that up with Andy. Maybe he told Andy until he gets a contract he don’t want to go up in the middle, and in that case that would make Andy a good coach.
It all comes down to the QB. If the QB plays poor regardless to whos at fault then how the f**k is a WR going to make a impact.
by EaglesNeedD on Feb 11, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
The middle?
the medium middle is turning into a “No Strike Zone”! Any route out past the LB’s and in front of the Safeties is almost certainly a 10 – 15 yard gain, but the WR has to catch it.
by Forever eagle green on Feb 11, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Problem is Vick's poor reading of the D#
All our recievers sucked this year and I put that on Vick.
by EaglesNeedD on Feb 11, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
So it's his fault
that they dropped passes they should be catching consistently, his fault for their backdrops and loss of yards, his fault for fumbling it right into the defense’s hands and throwing the game out the window, the very games that would’ve put us into the playoffs. Yea. Nice logic.
Maybe Andy does not want to send him up the middle in fear of Jackson getting another concusion
Then why the fuck are we keeping such a liability and living in constant fear he’s going to get knocked the fuck out if he gets hit going down the middle? Makes the case to keep him even weaker.
"If you’re afraid to fail, then you’re probably going to fail. You know what I mean? Fuck it." -- Kobe "Black Mamba" Bryant
So in other words Vick can’t do his job because of a weak O-line so than how the f**k is Jackson suppost to have success?
The failures of the O-line led to his injuries and took away his ability to read the D as quickly as possible early on in the season, he became better during the last stage of the season and hence I point out those games where he made adjustments to his game. No where did I say that he had no success due to his O-line performing terribly. You’re taking my words out of context. The Giants have a shitty O-line but they have rb’s and wr’s that can block and that mitigates their other issues.
"If you’re afraid to fail, then you’re probably going to fail. You know what I mean? Fuck it." -- Kobe "Black Mamba" Bryant
don't forget that Vick hasn't had an offseason to work with since 2006
this will be his first since then, so stop acting like he was completely prepared for all this. he’s still learning the offense, he isn’t a seasoned vet with this team and you go on to compare him with the elite of the league. get real.
"If you’re afraid to fail, then you’re probably going to fail. You know what I mean? Fuck it." -- Kobe "Black Mamba" Bryant
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