Myth: Andy Reid's not good at drafting
(I urge people to skip down to the Basic Thoughts section if you're in hurry, its the most interesting part)
When grading Andy Reid's ability to draft its easy to make an argument either way. If you're trying to support Andy you talk about Brian Westbrook and Trent Cole. If you're an Andy Reid detractor you talk about Jerome McDougle and Freddie Mitchell. With all the disagreement I wanted to see if there was a way to statistically compare the Eagles round by round against other NFL teams since the beginning of Andy Reid's tenure. I googled and some guy on a Cleveland blog did an analysis categorizing players based on talent and then showing the chance of picking a player of this talent pool in each round. Here's a link to his article if you want a full explanation of how he grouped players (recommended):
http://realcavsfans.com/showthread.php?38395-NFL-Draft-Success-by-Round
Its not perfect but he laid out a pretty good system. I then grouped Eagles players into categories due to his guidelines. I only went through 2009 because at least 3 years are needed to properly assess a players potential. Even three years are sketchy because although we know a players potential, its hard to say if they will consistently meet that potential (i.e. DeSean Jackson)
Heres the short version of the categories. The players are ranked largely by WCAV (Weighted Career Approximate Value). Here's a full explanation of that statistic: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?page_id=518
Anyway here's the categories:
-8 GP: Simple, any player who plays in 8 NFL games, 77% of all NFL players drafted between 1999-2006 got this far.
EAGLES: 76% of Eagles drafted between 1999-2009 made it at least this far. Including 100% rounds 1-3. Examples: McDougle, Tony Hunt, Freddie Milons, Victor Abiamiri.
-Just another Guy: Players who stick around for at least a few years but contribute little, 55%.
EAGLES: 58% of Eagles reached this level, once again pretty much on par with the league. Examples: FredEx, Barry Gardner, Doug Brzezinski, Max Jean-Giles
-Depth: Below average starters or solid backups, 28%
EAGLES: This is first significant stat. 41% of Eagles draftees at least contribute. The Eagles are ahead of the league average in just about every round. The biggest difference comes in the 2nd round. 80% of Eagles 2nd round picks reach this stage, whereas the league average is about 58%. Examples: Broderick Bunkley (based on his time here), Todd Pinkston, Jason Avant, Kevin Kolb,Winston Justice, Sean Considine, Omar Gaither.
-Good Starter: Above average starters, 14%
EAGLES: 18% of Eagles draft picks reach this level. However the Eagles are way higher than the league average at picking starters in rounds 1-3, they then fall below in the late rounds. In Round 1 six of Andy's nine first round picks have become solid starters, where the league average is 50%. He has however only gotten three players of at least this level from rounds 4-7 (Celek, Cole, Herremans). Other Examples: Shawn Andrews (a hard guy to place), Lito Sheppard, Jeremy Maclin, Mike Patterson.
-Upper Tier Starters: 6%
EAGLES: 8%. The Eagles are slightly below average in finding this caliber players in the 1st round. The league average is close to 30% and only 2 of 9 first round picks (Corey Simon and Donovan McNabb) reached this level. However the league average for 2nd round picks dips below 10% while the Eagles have had 20% of their 2nd rounders reach this level. Examples: Sheldon Brown and Corey Simon...for the record: Sheldon Brown's WCAV didn't justify this position, I kind of went on opinion. On the other hand Pinkston's WCAV had him as a good starter and I put him in the "Depth" category.
-Star: 3% Examples from around the league: Jason Witten, Frank Gore, Richard Seymour
EAGLES: The Eagles have picked 5 stars in 92 picks, putting them slightly above the NFL average. Here they are: Donovan McNabb (say what you want but he went to 5 straight pro bowls at one point), Brian Westbrook, Trent Cole, DeSean Jackson, and LeSean McCoy. A little preemptive on McCoy and Jackson I know. They are basically ranked on the average of their first three seasons.
-Superstar: 1% ex: Ed Reed, Edgerrin James, Ray Lewis
EAGLES: In 92 players Andy has yet to have one emerge as a superstar, although I see no reason LeSean McCoy couldn't be the first based on his improvement levels so far. One of 100 is about league average so you could say were due.
BASIC THOUGHTS
-This research tells me that Andy Reid has unfairly labeled as a poor early round drafter. Reid has consistently gotten starters in the first couple rounds at rates higher than the league average. He has been consistent albeit unexciting. Fans take it for granted when your first round pick becomes a starter even though 50% of first round picks never become consistent starters. I know fans want the first round guy to be a pro-bowler every time, but in reality Mike Patterson is a good pick. Also remember that the Eagles usually draft in the bottom half of the draft. The chance of drafting a starter drops from about 75% for a top 5 pick to about 40% when picking around twentieth.
-On average teams first round picks become stars once every seven years. Reid is 1 for 9, it just so happened it was his first draft and this is very much a "what have you done for me lately" business
-The chance of drafting a star in the 2nd round is about 5% (1 in 20 years). The chance of doing it back to back years is about 0.25%. (LeSean McCoy (2008) and DeSean Jackson (2009) both qualify)
-Hearing about stories like Tom Brady or Brian Westbrook and Trent Cole sometimes skews our vision of just how hard it is to hit on late round picks. The chance of drafting even a modiocre starter/quality backup in rounds 6 and 7 is about 5%. Kurt Coleman=GREAT PICK. Jamar Chaney=GREAT PICK (Even if they never improve). Moises Fokou=pretty good pick (its true). Jason Kelce and Brian Rolle=potentially PHENOMENAL picks
-If Casey Matthews can maintain his role as a nickle linebacker hes better than about 75% of players picked in this round
-A lot of people bash Andy Reid based on his last two drafts but we really don't know how good Brandon Graham and Nate Allen will be yet. Considering Reid's history we should at least give his players a chance before ripping him.
-Lastly, 14% of NFL players drafted become above average starters. That means if a team has one pick in each round and ends up with one starter it is an average draft. I urge Eagles fans to remember these statistics when complaining about every pick we make that doesn't pan out.
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Thank you
Finally someone who agrees that Andy isn’t THAT BAD at picking in the draft.
That being said we’ve had some brutal drafts… Im sure if we really looked, though Andy overall isn’t bad, Im sure there are a couple where they are just cough bad cough
Fortunately for this year Keechly seems like a no brainer FO wise with a 12-20 pick right now. But hasn’t Casey already proven that someone without athletic ability regardless of family, ability to get to the ball (college wise at least) and instinct can’t succeed in the NFL? My only issue with Keechly is his athleticism this is a passing league you need to be athletic at LB nowadays.
He is athletic enough
And he’s had a lot of INTs … 7? I think.. and I know he returned 1 for a TD against the hurricanes to win the game
Just wait until December..
7 is a lot
considering Burfict has had 3 in his career (none this year)
and Manti Te’o hasn’t had any..
Just wait until December..
None of this is true about Kuechly:
But hasn’t Casey already proven that someone without athletic ability regardless of family, ability to get to the ball (college wise at least) and instinct can’t succeed in the NFL?
He isn’t Burfict in terms of athletic freakishness, but he is more than athletic enough for the NFL. His instincts are unmatched in terms of college LBs right now and his ability to get to the ball is evidenced in his insane tackle numbers.
Or were you just saying you don’t think he isn’t athletic enough? Your last sentence throws me off.
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
What issue do you have with his “athleticism?” Have you ever seen him play or this just based off a report? He’s more than athletic enough. Just go watch some highlights. He flies from sideline to sideline.
And please, do not make the silly mistake of comparing him to Casey Matthews. They are nothing alike. Casey was no where near the player Luke was in college. It’s a ridiculous comparison that no one would make.
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Donovan McNabb, Corey Simon, Freddie Mitchell, Lito Sheppard, Jerome McDougle, Shawn Andrews, Mike Patterson, Brodrick Bunkley, Jeremy Maclin, Brandon Graham and Dany Watkins.
Those are our first round picks, that’s not a good list of players. Outside of McNabb none of those players contributed to the Eagles in a big way over a long period of time. Simon, Sheppard and Andrews had nice runs but they flamed out. Patterson and Bunkley weren’t difference makers. Mitchell and McDougle were complete swings and misses. Jeremy Maclin looks like a hit. Jury is out on Graham and Watkins.
You’d like for your first round picks to be a bit better than they’ve been.
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Unfortunately, I don’t think this analysis is considering the length of each career. According to the link, the categories are generally based on the Weighted Career Approximate Value per season. Nonetheless, the analysis does a nice job of showing that even first round selections are often unsuccessful.
http://realcavsfans.com/showthread.php?38395-NFL-Draft-Success-by-Round
by AnotherAndyR on Dec 29, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
Its true, length of career isnt factored enough. I think alot of NFL players put together like 3-4 good years though before injuries start too add up.
Great post overall
There really isn’t a perfect way of doing this, but your approach is far better than just focusing on a few players, and it’s great that you could use objective ratings from Pro-Football-Reference. I just looked at the total WCAV (rather than per season), and the Eagles are ranked 12th overall from 1999-2009 (including 13th in round one & 19th in round two). This total perspective will place more emphasis on the earlier draft years because those players had more seasons to accumulate WCAV. From that perspective, a draft cannot be fully evaluated until all of the players have retired (i.e., when it is no longer relevant). And yes, I agree that many NFL careers are only 3-4 years anyway.
by AnotherAndyR on Dec 30, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
Andrews was tough, he couldve been a great pick if he could keep his head straight. But I have no regrets on Lito, Maclin, Simon, Patterson, Bunkley, and i think Watkins well be good
Andrews was a rising star, and was one of the most dominating O-linemen in the league. Then he got hurt, and then was never the same. We tend to lose perspective because we remember the circus of the end of his time here — it’s too easy to forget that the guy was a total masher and extremely athletic.
When you’re looking at it from the perspective of the draft, I’d say AR hit it out of the park — he picked a guy who was clearly a stud. The fact that he got hurt and was never the same afterward can’t really be blamed on the guy who drafted him. It happens in the NFL.
by Clyde Simmons 96 on Dec 30, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Just goes to illustrate
how amateurish it is to claim to be able to quantify the success of a draft pick.
Agree 100%
Sorry I didn’t see yours before posting mine
by PrincetonGreen on Jan 6, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Whether you, or anyone else, has regrets is completely irrelevant when it comes to rationally grading draft picks.
I hope you understand that.
If you are going to make a legitimate case for or against Reid, et al, you will have to compare their drafts to other teams’ drafts.
There is no other valid way to judge.
I'd say Maclin was a nice pick
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by HawaiianGreen on Dec 30, 2011 2:01 AM EST up reply actions
Andrews was DOMINANT
Sean Andrews was perhaps the most impressive new O-Lineman to enter the game in years. Not only did he contribute mightily right away (at a position that normally takes 2-3 years of seasoning) but he changed the way defenses played against us (as soon as he had his ‘nasal polyps’ removed at the end of his rookie year). This of course makes his head-case drug-fuelled Phelpsdown all the more tragic – but how can you possibly pin that on the pre-draft analysis??
by PrincetonGreen on Jan 6, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Andy hasn't picked hall of famers with every pick
fire him!!!!
Cowboys suck.
by stinkypants on Dec 30, 2011 1:15 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
I'm indifferent on him when it comes to offensive drafting
When it comes to defensive drafting, he’s been bad. Simple as that. Check the defensive players taken from 2005-2009 drafts by the Eagles and you can’t deny its been bad. Count how many defensive players we still have on our roster’s after those drafts. Look at where most of them are now.
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2005: Patterson and Cole makes it a solid defensive draft.
2006: They got Bunkley who was an ok starter, I really liked the pick when they made it though.
2007:No 1st round pick: they miss on Abiamiri and then Bradley
This sounds like a cop out but I think the Eagles really caught bad luck with Stewart Bradley’s injury. I think pre-injury we was gonna be a upper-tier starter, he looked like a hell of a player in 2008 and I believe would have been a great pick
2008:No 1st round pick. Trevor Laws is a rotational player which is OK for a 2nd rounder
2009: They don’t address defense until round 5, so you cant expect much.
Bunkley and Bradley were tough misses, so the Eagles haven’t got what they needed. But overall I wouldn’t say that Reid can’t draft defense
by dstern77 on Dec 30, 2011 2:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Love this post
Bunkley was a good starter for this team. Him and Patterson formed a good run stopping team. Ask Denver if Bunkley is a bad pick.
by PhilsForever on Dec 30, 2011 8:50 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions 1 recs
Ask Philly how Bunkley is contributing, that 2013 6th round pick sure is helping on the field!
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by d-jackfan10 on Dec 30, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
So you disagree with trading players for future picks?
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by Eaglesadvocate on Dec 30, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
yea bunkleys like pro-bowl caliber on profootballfocus.com..You can see why we moved him though, were deep as hell at DT
He is the best run stopping DT in the NFL this according to them, but he isnt much of a pass rusher, so he does not fit the wide 9.
by Anders Jensen on Dec 31, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Sort of like the oatmeal of draft analyses.
Anyone got some butter and Maple Syrup?
Not my problem that you are at a loss for words.
-Depth: Below average starters or solid backups, 28%
EAGLES: This is first significant stat. 41% of Eagles draftees at least contribute. The Eagles are ahead of the league average in just about every round. The biggest difference comes in the 2nd round. 80% of Eagles 2nd round picks reach this stage, whereas the league average is about 58%. Examples: Broderick Bunkley (based on his time here), Todd Pinkston, Jason Avant, Kevin Kolb,Winston Justice, Sean Considine, Omar Gaither.
Where to begin. Bunkley at pick 14, Justice at pick 39, Avant at pick 109, Gaither at pick 168 all put into same category.
Those four players , plus Gocong, who you didn’t even mention, have nothing in common, except that they were drafted, along with Considine, Jean-Gilles, Bloom and Ramsey, in 2006.
If 80% of Eagles’ 2nd rd draft picks reach the stage of “below average starter or solid backup”, then that is evidence of failure, not success, as you imply. 2nd round picks are expected, or at least realistically hoped to be good starters.
Who is grading these players? You? If so, why don’t you give at least an inkling in your post that you know how to rationally grade draft picks?
Whose ass did you pull the percentages out of? Yours? If so, why don’t you give at least an inkling in your post that you know how to derive percentage of “Good starter: above average starter” (what ever the fuck that’s supposed to mean ), for example.
by waterfield on Dec 30, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Bro, nothing you will say will have me at a loss for words, except when you start talking about oatmeal.
Let me try to clarify. I’m hoping your a rational person and I’m not just wasting my time:
-What do Bunkley, Pinkston, Avant, Kolb, Justice, Considine, and Gaither have in common?
They were all put in the depth category for the purposes of this study. That category is basically below average starters or backups. I gave examples of who I put in this category to show the reader how I was grading. In my opinion all these guys fit the category although you could argue Bunkley was a “Good Starter” or Gaither was “Just Another Guy”. But I knew if I started placing players in higher categories it would hurt my credibility so I was conservative for the most part.
-Your 2nd round pick issues
80% reached AT LEAST that level. 33% became good starters..I know you expect your 2nd round picks to be good starters so you’re not happy with 33%. Keep expecting it, but know that the average 2nd round pick becomes a good starter 21% of the time. So basically if you keep expecting it you will continue to be disappointed.
-Who’s grading these players?
I graded the players. I did it pretty much according to the guidelines set up by the original research further explained by the link at the top. Like I said this is the part where I could let my opinion seep in. To show that I can rationally grade picks is why I included examples of which Eagles I placed in each category. I figured a few examples would give you an overview that I know what I’m doing, but like I said earlier I can send you the whole damn list if you want.
Where did I get the percentages from?
From the study I gave a link for at the top. I could’ve basically rewrote his whole study but I figured I’d keep it concise. And skeptical fans like yourself can check it out on your own. Don’t tell me I’m pulling percentages out of my ass.
Hopefully some of this gets through although I feel like I’m talking to a guy who’s too set on his own opinions even when facts contradict them. It’s frustrating as shit to come across people who love everything that backs up their pre-existing opinions and basically shut out all other arguments even if they have merit.
There has been some worthwhile criticism to my write-up in various comments, which I’ll never rip a guy for. But all your comments show me is that you either didn’t understand the article or didn’t really take the time to read it because it went against your opinion.
I know this is a worthwhile post because I learned as I was writing it. If you told me that a 2nd round pick has a 1 in 5 chance of becoming a good starter I wouldn’t have believed you, but facts are facts. The guy who’s study I was using graded every player to enter the NFL for 7 years. He put an immense amount of time into that and I’m happy to have learned from it and was trying to share some of that knowledge with the readers of the blog.
by dstern77 on Dec 31, 2011 3:02 AM EST up reply actions 9 recs
Nice post. Nice to see actual analysis instead of just “Gramm sux we shud of got JPP!!!”
by groot on Dec 30, 2011 2:55 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
The way I see Andy's drafting
At least in recent years, he drafts for his needs (or solves them through free agency) a year late, or at best some rounds late. Last year we badly needed offensive line. Not a single OL player was drafted, Jamaal was rushed back and re-injured himself, and even with Celek staying in to block most of the time the line was still a mess. Also we needed an RCB and he waited until the 4th round to take Lindley. This year we needed linebackers and he didn’t draft or sign a single one. This year we got Watkins and Kelce (and Harris and Mathis), after one year of Vick running for his life. Now after a year of being gashed by run offenses, we will probably sign an LB or two in free agency and draft another one or two.
But by being slow to address needs he hurts the team’s overall performance.
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to his defense
he did sign casey mathews and brian rolle. dunno where you got that they didn’t draft or sign a lb this year.
by phillyfan330 on Dec 30, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
In late rounds
Which means they clearly didn’t make it a priority
French fries are really Belgian, sausages and bagels have the same amount of protein, two countries' names mean "turkey", and Santa Claus was invented by the Coca-Cola company. Is life weird or what?
Debe ser verde y volante - Πράσινο και να πετάει - It's gotta be green and it's gotta fly!
I don’t know that I would agree that just because a player taken in the 7th round is playing that he’s a “great pick.”
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Well, there’s the problem. Are they better than 90% of the players pick in that round or are they just getting 90% more opportunity than those guys.
I don’t really know that Jamar Chaney is better than 90% of the 7th rounders taken that year. He’s playing more… but can I say for sure that he’s better?
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I would Chaney/Coleman have the skill level of a quality back-up/below average starter.Are there players of Chaney’s quality who were cut from the Steelers cause their LBs are twice as good? probably. But there are also teams like the Browns who’ve probably started even worse players, and those players will grade out on Chaney’s level as well. So i think it evens out.
It doesn't matter who has more talent, it is who gets on the field
Chaney could be worse than 50% of the 7th round picks but if they never see the field then they did nothing for their teams and made no impact which means that Chaney was a better pick. I get what you are saying and maybe X linebacker would have been a better 7th round pick if the Eagles had picked him but team Y did instead so he didn’t see the field but there is absolutely no way to prove that outside of how they perform in the NFL
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Honestly though, why wouldn't you?
What would you really expect from a 7th round pick? I tend to expect them to get cut in the preseason as a rule, not become starters. That they have to become starters may speak to other team problems, but I don’t think you can label a 7th round pick who is starting as anything but good.
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Here's the problem...
When you have a bunch of “How much can you expect from them” guys starting for your team, you have a bad team.
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by no1pipelayer on Dec 31, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
Because...
Anyone can start a 7th round pick if they so desire. It doesn’t mean that the guy is a good player or he’s helping the team. The mere fact that a guy is starting is not proof that he’s a good pick. Playing well is proof that he was a good pick.
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by JasonB on Dec 31, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
QFT
The mere fact that a guy is starting is not proof that he’s a good pick. Playing well is proof that he was a good pick.
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by PhiladelphiaEagles on Jan 1, 2012 4:14 AM EST up reply actions
Nice Post
I thought Reid would be a little below average but looking back he made some nice picks. My biggest issue with Reid drafting is two fold first he refuses to draft Lbs in the first 3 rounds and second he usually misses on defensive players in the early part of the draft. Off the top of my head Trevor Laws, Jerome McDougle, Victor Abmairi (could be a late pick dont remember) my point is Andy is struggling getting us young talent on the defensive side of the ball. So while he isnt a poor drafter overall I would say he is a poor defense drafter.
Addressing your issues
I counted 142 linebackers drafted in rounds 1-3 since 1999, which represents an average of 4.4 per team. The Eagles drafted five of those linebackers, so their rate is essentially equal to the league average. Unfortunately, most of those five players have been forgettable (Matt McCoy, Quinton Caver, Barry Gardner, Bryan Smith, & Stewart Bradley).
As I mentioned above, the Eagles overall drafts have ranked 12th from 1999-2009, including 13th in the first round & 19th in the second round. When looking only at defense, their rank has been 17th overall, including 16th in the first round, and 18th in the second round. So yes, they have been worse at drafting defense than offense, but even their defense is close to the league average.
The Eagles typically have a relatively late draft position, so if their performance is near/above average, then they are probably doing better than would be expected. I also wonder if draft performances look worse when a team is active in free agency (like the Eagles) — are those teams more likely to bench/cut the players they drafted?
by AnotherAndyR on Dec 30, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
All fair points
I am surprised that the eagles are that high (league average) at defensive drafting it has seemed a while since we drafted a strong defensive player (Mike Patterson).
by Mr.electric10 on Dec 30, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Excellent post. I’d say you were pretty conservative in several of your rankings. e.g., you could easily bump up Avant from “Depth” to “Good Starter” — he may be the top slot receiver in the league not named Welker. And you could easily bump Maclin up to “Upper Tier Starter” — he would certainly start for every team in the league.
The fact that the posts haven’t really quibbled with your rankings speaks to this, and it strengthens your point.
by Clyde Simmons 96 on Dec 30, 2011 11:52 AM EST reply actions
-Lastly, 14% of NFL players drafted become above average starters. That means if a team has one pick in each round and ends up with one starter it is an average draft. I urge Eagles fans to remember these statistics when complaining about every pick we make that doesn’t pan out.
but the eagles draft some time two times more players than other teams and that is one of the things that drives fans crazy is the trading down that seemingly amounts to nothing.
Let's get it Birds.
So….Reid trades down a lot, and gets more picks by doing so. And he still drafts quality players at a higher percentage than the league average. So that means he gets more in terms of quantity and at a higher rate.
And that’s bad because….?
by Clyde Simmons 96 on Dec 30, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
but is getting players that just play and are "quality" a success
I mean really is that what this team should strive for is having a bunch of decent players and very few great players
Let's get it Birds.
by homestar2281 on Dec 30, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Reading comprehension
Look at the post - dstern77 broke players down into each category, and shows that AR has done well across the categories.
by Clyde Simmons 96 on Dec 30, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
no the eagles select more players than almost any team
so their success should be greater. I mean yeah the percentage is on or a little bit above the average but that also means that there are any more misses.
Let's get it Birds.
by homestar2281 on Dec 30, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
No it doesn't.
You aren’t reading the post very well I assume. The numbers are based on percentages, not just numbers of players. Reid’s drafting is above average based on percentages and since he tends to make more picks than most other coaches, that above average drafting based on percentage is actually even more impressive.
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
Good grief
I’m going to go way out on a limb and guess that you are struggling with 5th or 6th grade math. You should try to pay more attention in school and not tax your brain with football blogs.
by Clyde Simmons 96 on Dec 30, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
No
If the eagles draft 20 player and the x team drafts 10 and let’s say they are both successful 50% then x team has 5 failures while the eagles have 10 I mean that is how percentages work
Let's get it Birds.
by homestar2281 on Dec 30, 2011 12:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
...keep going...you almost have a coherent thought....
…and that means he has more successes as well. And the data show that Reid drafts quality players at a higher percentage than the average. So he’s getting a greater number of quality players, at a greater rate. That means he’s doing a better job than most of the mouth-breathing critics say (no offense intended if you prefer to breathe with your mouth open).
by Clyde Simmons 96 on Dec 30, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
And they would also have 10 successes versus just 5 successes for x team.
Soooo, what’s your point? It still ends up being a better draft in the Eagles favor based on pure success vs. failure (as you set up in your hypothetical).
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
I mean really is that what this team should strive for is having a bunch of decent players and very few great players
Um yes? That’s what good teams look like. How many teams have more than just a few great players? It’s finding ways to replace the few shitty players with decent ones and then putting all the players in schemes that maximize their talents that ends in great teams.
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
also why would you want to strive to be on the average and not better
I bet if you look at the patriots, steelers, or ravens they will have better averages
Let's get it Birds.
by homestar2281 on Dec 30, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
my bad
the eagles beat the average BY 1 TO 5% IN MOST CATEGORIES.
except the “depth” category. Which who knows how this was compiled its a weak metric made threw another weak metric(it put Todd Pinkston as a “good starter”). and all of this information was compiled by a guy with less than 100 career comments and whos last post was this gem http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2011/12/20/2649756/guess-whos-back
I would like to see that Data before we all go saying that the Eagles are above average or even to say this is a good way to access a good drafting team.
Let's get it Birds.
by homestar2281 on Dec 30, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not trying to rip dstern77
but lets not act like this is some credible study
Let's get it Birds.
by homestar2281 on Dec 30, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
yo you cant just say “Im not trying to rip dstern77” , you’re clearly calling out my credibility. I’m on my way out the door but i can try to upload the full list of players later and how I categorized them and we can see how much you disagree. Like someone else said I was intentionally conservative, cause I knew this was the one area of the research that could become subjective
you did a good job putting together a well researched post and I’m truly not trying to rip you if half of the people on this blog put as much in to there posts this blog would be way better in the fan post section. Don’t feel obligated to upload all of that over 100 players that Reid has drafted might be a little much.
Let's get it Birds.
by homestar2281 on Dec 30, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
The metric isn't that weak actually.
Reading through the PFR stuff on WCAV it seems that it’s a decent measuring stick for how well a player’s career went/is going (which is a good way to evaluate draft position). Like any metric though, it’s not perfect. The categories are made up and the WCAV is used to put players into those categories, but the categories are overall pretty solid and well thought out IMO (though again, nothing is perfect).
And at the end of the day, the point of the post was to analyze the belief that Reid is a terrible drafter (something that is claimed many, many times here and elsewhere). I think this does a good job of proving that Reid is not a terrible drafter at all. The truth is that most fans don’t analyze and dissect any other team drafts aside from their own, so they only see the successes or the extremely visible failures of other teams. They don’t see the everyday, average picks that even teams like New England make.
As far as dstern77 and his last post goes, it wasn’t that bad. He just made a couple egregious spelling mistakes that were hard to look past. He took offense in the comments, words were said, etc. I think this is a pretty good way to come back with something of quality though.
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
yeah
thats why people are critical of trading down cause it doesn’t have the same kind of results
Let's get it Birds.
by homestar2281 on Dec 30, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
I hope you can see why the fact that two trade-ups netted good picks does not, without more, support your point that trading down “doesn’t have the same kind of results” as trading up.
What else do you have?
by Clyde Simmons 96 on Dec 30, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
My point is that when the Eagles see a player they like they go after him aggressively. They’re 2 for 2 on those. If they look at the players in the 1st round and don’t see one they like in their scheme why not trade down and get more depth without handing out 1st round money.
Im not sure on this, but i think only 1st rounders get guaranteed money. So if you don’t like what’s out there then trading out makes a ton of sense
Jerome McDougle
Was a trade up too.
I'm not drunk I'm just drinking.
by no1pipelayer on Dec 31, 2011 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
Brandon Graham...
is not exactly a homerun either. But I’ll be man enough to admit he was the player I most coveted in 2010.
I'm not drunk I'm just drinking.
by no1pipelayer on Dec 31, 2011 7:58 AM EST up reply actions
Is it considered better in this analysis to re-sign your own drafted free agents, or to sign players drafted by other teams in free agency?
Oh boy, is this great!
by MayIhave10,000marblesplease? on Dec 30, 2011 12:53 PM EST reply actions
So a little above average statistically without taking situational needs into account. Sounds about right.
AR should have to wear a Flava Flav necklace until he learns how to manage a clock.
I am the proud target of temper tantrums.
My issues with Reid's drafting.
- Throws away 3rds like they’re useless.
- Likes to trade down for additional picks. (I’m more of a quality over quantity guy)
- Is never right when he reaches for guys. (B. Smith, Teo, M McCoy, Gocong, etc, etc, etc)
I'm not drunk I'm just drinking.
I generally think AR does a good job with the drafts, but I agree with your last point. I’m trying to think of one of his I’m-more-clever-than-everyone-else picks that has actually worked out. I’m all for taking the occasional shot at a diamond in the rough or a small-school guy, but it seems like we go for those guys with higher picks than are necessary (like the guys you list).
by Clyde Simmons 96 on Dec 30, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Does the ToddFather apply?
Todd Herremans, 2005, Round 4, Pick 126, Saginaw Valley State.
The views expressed by this comment belong to they who wrote them, heretofore referred to as "comment maker."
The views do not reflect the official views of the comment makers employer.
The views do not reflect the official views of the organization through which the Internet was accessed by the comment maker.
3rd round picks
Believe it or not, the Eagles are the 5th most successful team with 3rd round picks. Their high ranking is mostly due to Westbrook and Burgess, but even Bradley and Gocong have been above average for the third round.
by AnotherAndyR on Dec 30, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
I'll give you Westbrook...
but that was a long ass time ago. The Eagles essentially got nothing out of Burgess or Bradley. Gocong is no different than Fokou which is basically just a warm body who only played because the Eagles were bereft of talent at his position.
I'm not drunk I'm just drinking.
by no1pipelayer on Dec 31, 2011 1:34 AM EST up reply actions
Well he hit right with Westbrook at least.
I’m not sure if that really counts as a reach, but it was considered a bit of a reach at the time (I think Westy was pegged for the 4th round by lots of scouts).
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
Absolutely was a reach
A tiny 4th round RB from tiny little Villanova that not too many years before had NO FOOTBALL program at all. It was in my mind perhaps the greatest positive draft surprise ever. DeSean was a steal – but not nearly as big a risk coming from Cal.
But that may be part of the problem – AR wins the lottery in the first dozen tickets he buys, and he seems to keep believing that it is going to happen again, instead of working the numbers “moneyball” style like Belechick
by PrincetonGreen on Jan 6, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
Here they ALL are.
2011
RD SEL # PLAYER
1 23 Danny Watkins
2 54 Jaiquawn Jarrett
3 90 Curtis Marsh
4 116 Casey Matthews
4 120 Alex Henery
5 149 Dion Lewis
5 161 Julian Vandervelde
6 191 Jason Kelce
6 193 Brian Rolle
7 237 Greg Lloyd
7 240 Stanley Havili
2010
RD SEL # PLAYER
1 13 Brandon Graham
2 37 Nate Allen
3 86 Daniel Te’o-Nesheim
4 105 Trevard Lindley
4 121 Keenan Clayton
4 122 Mike Kafka
4 125 Clay Harbor
5 134 Ricky Sapp
5 159 Riley Cooper
6 200 Charles Scott
7 220 Jamar Chaney
7 243 Jeff Owens
7 244 Kurt Coleman
2009
RD SEL # PLAYER
1 19 Jeremy Maclin
2 53 LeSean McCoy
5 153 Cornelius Ingram
5 157 Macho Harris
5 159 Fenuki Tupou
6 194 Brandon Gibson
7 213 Paul Fanaika
7 230 Moise Fokou
2008
RD SEL # PLAYER
2 49 DeSean Jackson
3 80 Bryan Smith
4 109 Mike McGlynn
4 117 Quintin Demps
4 131 Jack Ikegwuonu
6 184 Mike Gibson
6 200 Joe Mays
6 203 Andy Studebaker
7 230 King Dunlap
2007
RD SEL # PLAYER
2 36 Kevin Kolb
2 57 Victor Abiamiri
3 87 Stewart Bradley
3 90 Tony Hunt
5 159 C.J. Gaddis
5 162 Brent Celek
6 201 Rashad Barksdale
7 236 Nate Ilaoa
2006
RD SEL # PLAYER
1 14 Brodrick Bunkley
2 39 Winston Justice
3 71 Chris Gocong
4 99 Max Jean-Gilles
4 109 Jason Avant
5 147 Jeremy Bloom
5 168 Omar Gaither
6 204 LaJuan Ramsey
2005
RD SEL # PLAYER
1 31 Mike Patterson
2 35 Reggie Brown
2 63 Matt McCoy
3 77 Ryan Moats
4 102 Sean Considine
4 126 Todd Herremans
5 146 Trent Cole
5 172 Scott Young
6 211 Calvin Armstrong
7 247 Keyonta Marshall
7 252 David Bergeron
2004
RD SEL # PLAYER
1 16 Shawn Andrews
3 89 Matt Ware
4 129 J.R. Reed
4 131 Trey Darilek
5 162 Thomas Tapeh
6 185 Andy Hall
6 192 Dexter Wynn
7 227 Adrien Clarke
7 242 Bruce Perry
7 243 Dominic Furio
2003
RD SEL # PLAYER
1 15 Jerome McDougle
2 61 L.J. Smith
3 95 Billy McMullen
4 131 Jamaal Green
6 185 Jeremy Bridges
7 244 Norman LeJeune
2002
RD SEL # PLAYER
1 26 Lito Sheppard
2 58 Michael M. Lewis
2 59 Sheldon Brown
3 91 Brian Westbrook
4 124 Scott Peters
5 162 Freddie Milons
6 198 Tyreo Harrison
7 238 Raheem Brock
2001
RD SEL # PLAYER
1 25 Freddie Mitchell
2 55 Quinton Caver
3 63 Derrick Burgess
4 121 Correll Buckhalter
5 147 Tony Stewart
5 155 A.J. Feeley
2000
RD SEL # PLAYER
1 6 Corey Simon
2 36 Todd Pinkston
2 61 Bobbie Williams
4 99 Gari Scott
6 171 Thomas Hamner
6 178 John Frank
6 192 John Romero
1999
RD SEL # PLAYER
1 2 Donovan McNabb
2 35 Barry Gardner
3 64 Doug Brzezinski
4 97 John Welbourn
4 128 Damon Moore
4 130 Na Brown
6 172 Cecil Martin
6 201 Troy Smith
7 208 Jed Weaver
7 251 Pernell Davis
God Damn you, Andy Reid.
The fat queen has failed us again. Reid must go.
by EvilBanner on Dec 30, 2011 4:45 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Thanks, EB!
French fries are really Belgian, sausages and bagels have the same amount of protein, two countries' names mean "turkey", and Santa Claus was invented by the Coca-Cola company. Is life weird or what?
Debe ser verde y volante - Πράσινο και να πετάει - It's gotta be green and it's gotta fly!
tried to rec but it came up as a flag
French fries are really Belgian, sausages and bagels have the same amount of protein, two countries' names mean "turkey", and Santa Claus was invented by the Coca-Cola company. Is life weird or what?
Debe ser verde y volante - Πράσινο και να πετάει - It's gotta be green and it's gotta fly!
this website has the draft picks for every team from every year.
Its all about the []_[]
#FirePaulHolmgren
by philiafan14364 on Dec 31, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
EB
What about Laws he was the eagles first pick in 08.
by Mr.electric10 on Dec 30, 2011 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
Reid always hits big on a mid rounder
and drafts very well on the offensive side of the ball. Overall I’d say he’s good, not great.
Formerly number5
RIP JJ
"But for you to open your big fucking mouth and call Shady "overrated" makes me want to take my big cock and shut you up." - Brotherman initiates EB’s prison stay/Brotherman on getting his dick wet.
by HawaiianGreen on Dec 31, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
Scary when you look at that list...
there were whole drafts that we got essentially nothing out of our picks.
I'm not drunk I'm just drinking.
by no1pipelayer on Dec 31, 2011 8:04 AM EST up reply actions
That's ultimately why I disagree with the premise of this post.
If you check this list, you will see that the drafts like ‘99 and ’02 (indisputably good drafts that brought in many good to very good players) are the exception, not the rule. Hell, Reid wastes many ENTIRE drafts bringing in nothing. As Jason said above, just because you draft someone and then force him into a starting role, doesn’t mean he’s good. I really don’t think you can count a guy like Casey Matthews as a quality contributor. Just because someone “makes the team” (hardly a difficult task to do given Reid’s famously low expectations for performance and talent), doesn’t make him a “contributor.”
God Damn you, Andy Reid.
The fat queen has failed us again. Reid must go.
You could also ask why Reid spends so much time coveting 7th round picks...
…after looking at this list. “Oh, but EvilBanner, Kurt Coleman is our starting safety and was picked in the seventh round.”
My reply: “Shut up bitch. Your fat hero could have drafted Polamalu instead of Jerome McDougle. Polamalu is better than Coleman, or PIBTC.”
God Damn you, Andy Reid.
The fat queen has failed us again. Reid must go.
Agreed
Players like Fokou, Cheney, Matthews, Rolle, Gocong, M Harris, Q Demps or even Nate Allen are/were starters for this team but anyone who sees them as quality or even average at this point is deluded.
I'm not drunk I'm just drinking.
by no1pipelayer on Dec 31, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
Without seeing how seeing how dstern ranked the individual players, I don’t think you’re at liberty to say that.
He said he went conservatively on many of the player grades, but like I said, we don’t have any idea who was ranked where. It could be the case that he ranked someone like Matthews as a backup, not a starter.
Its all about the []_[]
#FirePaulHolmgren
by philiafan14364 on Dec 31, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
Great post
I think the thing that gets lost when evaluating drafts is context. Saying the Eagles are bad at drafting is useless unless you look at how other teams are doing in comparison. Look at the Patriots draft in 06. Ouch
Yes, we’ve had our DTO’s and Jarrett’s, but so has every other team. I also don’t think its fair to fault a team for drafting guys that eventually got injured, like Abiamiri, McDougle, Graham and Allen. You have no idea the kind of player Graham would have been if he hadn’t shredded his knee.
Its all about the []_[]
#FirePaulHolmgren
by philiafan14364 on Dec 31, 2011 11:23 AM EST reply actions
I am a Cowboys fan, but always thought the Eagles were very good at drafting and picking up free agents.
Reed and Roseman make a great tandem in the front office.
In the scouting department you have some great folks with Griggson and Riddick and the rest of the scouting department.
Add in Alec Halaby as the analyst. You guys are pretty solid.
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four. Dan Birdwell. Oakland Raiders
How do you want to be rememberd. Go out there and play every play like it is your last play. Be remembered as the person you want to be for the rest of your life. Spike Dykes, Midland Lee and Texas Tech Coach.
I just cannot completely buy this.
I look at how the Eagles have evolved since the SB year and what I see is an offense that is just as good if not better. I also see a defense that has dropped off significantly. If you look at Reid’s record before and after the SB I think that you can attribute the lower winning percentage to the defense not being as good, IMO. Why is that?
I have no problem with our draft record on the offensive side of the ball. Defense is another story. Look at the defense now. I can think of only one defensive player that we drafted that I would consider a top level player, Trent Cole. Yeah there are players that we have drafted that are OK, guys like Patterson, maybe Bunkley, but I am sorry, I don’t expect a home run every year but when’s the last home run we have had on defense?
I know that JJ passing away hurt us and consequently the coaching has dropped off. But you still need players. We have had to bring in too many FA’s on defense and it takes more time for them to integrate themselves in with the team.
My worry is that the whole Castillo debacle smoke screens the fact that we have holes in our defense. Just getting rid of Castillo won’t infuse more talent into the defense.
I really don’t see how anyone can look at our defensive draft picks since the SB year and say, “We did a good job there,”. What am I missing?
Go Eagles!
by MRPH on Dec 31, 2011 5:29 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Our defensive drafting hasn’t been good. Andy Reid clearly is much better at recognizing/developing talent on the offensive side of the bowl.
You could argue that bringing in a respected guy like Spags will help our drafting because you’d assume he has an eye for talent and that he’d have Andy’s ear with his reputation.
If we get Spags I’m entirely optimistic our defense we’ll be a top 10 unit next year because I think Nate Allen, DRC, and Nnamdi will all play better. Top 5 if we draft a MLB who pans out like Kuechly
Excellent article – only issue I have is it seems to grade all players in a round the same, would be interesting to see that broken down further especially for the first 2 or 3 rounds, perhaps in blocks of 10.
To me this article proves that Andy is a slightly above drafter. I don’t think I’m content with a slightly above average drafter. I want a significantly above average drafter for my football team.
by BrandonB on Jan 2, 2012 6:57 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions

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