Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Blake Griffin Slam Dunks: NBA Jam Style

Nickel Is The Norm In Today's NFL

PHILADELPHIA PA - JANUARY 09:  Jason Avant #81 and Jeremy Maclin #18 of the Philadelphia Eagles celebrates Avant's third quarter touchdown against the Green Bay Packers during the 2011 NFC wild card playoff game at Lincoln Financial Field on January 9 2011 in Philadelphia Pennsylvania.  (Photo by Chris Trotman/Getty Images)

Every week we hear someone say that the NFL is a "passing league" and certainly all offseason we heard about the importance of the Eagles having three starting caliber corners to combat all the nickel packages teams run. But I don't know if we all realized just how prevalent the 3 WR set is these days. It's by far the most common offensive package in the NFL this year. From Dan Pompei,

*The most common offensive personnel package in the NFL might not be what you think. It’s one back, one tight end and three receivers (or in a few cases, two receivers and a sixth offensive lineman), which has been used on 41.9 percent of total plays this year, as per data from Stats Inc.’s Ice program. The next most frequently used package—one back, two tight ends, two receivers—has been used much less—22.2 percent. The traditional two back, one tight end two receiver package? It’s been used only 16.9 percent of the time.

So not only is the fullback a completely marginalized position, but that tried and true old pro set is rarely used at this point. I guess the question is why? Anyone have a theory?

Comment 48 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

More from Bleeding Green Nation

Video Breakdown: LeSean McCoy's TD

Oct 2011 by JasonB - 45 comments

Eagles Vs Redskins Game Ball

Oct 2011 by JasonB - 61 comments

Around SB Nation

LeSean McCoy Packs a Punch

Oct 2011 from Hogs Haven - 4 comments

I'm Sending Rexy Back

Oct 2011 from Hogs Haven - 17 comments

Comments

Display:

nfl protecting the QB and WR

players adjusting to (what it seems like) a new rule each year for taking down a QB or WR.

by Philly O's on Oct 17, 2011 11:23 AM EDT reply actions  

True

Follow Bleeding Green Nation on Twitter & Facebook. Did you get your copy of the 2011 Eagles Annual yet?

by JasonB on Oct 17, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Andy Reid explained it best. Its tough to constantly win on 3rd down and keep a drive alive. Being more aggressive on 1st down with passes sets up 2nd and short- which is the dream situation.

I would like to thank my hands for being so great, for allowing me to type this post.

by corn on the kolb on Oct 17, 2011 11:29 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Please do not use “Dream” in any context associated with Eagles.

by D-Menace on Oct 17, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed: Very accurate comment.

The myth behind “ball control” and that “long drives are way better than short drives” overlooks the fact that it’s suicidal to intentionally try to make all of your drives long. If you want to have a long drive, then you need to use all 3 downs each time you move the chains and only gain a little more than 10 yards each set of downs… no big plays. This is a flawed approach. It’s improbable to convert multiple 3rd downs on the same drive (even 3rd and shorts/mediums).

Also, the more plays you execute, the more likely it is the drive will get derailed by a turnover, drop, penalty etc… That’s the same logic the “bend but don’t break” defense is based on. Wins/losses are based on points, and regardless of how many minutes or plays you use on a drive, the other team will get a chance to match or exceed what you did. Milking the clock only makes sense at the end of a half when you want to keep the opponent from getting another possession.

So yea, in the NFL, you have to score in any way possible. Points are the only things that matters. “3 yards and a cloud of dust” is obsolete because a 3 yard run on first down does not help you. 2nd and 7 is much less favorable than 1st and 10. Even a five yard run on first down is not very helpful… because if the second play fails (regardless if it’s run or pass), you’re now in a 3rd down situation. And again, converting 3rd downs routinely on a drive is very unlikely…

Andy’s run ratio never bothered me, but he calls too many runs on 2nd and 10, which always seem to leave us in 3rd and long. The myth of “running on 2nd on 10 to bring up a manageable 3rd down” is retarded. After all, since when is a 3rd and 10 unmanageable? It gets converted all the time. In fact, 3rd and long passes are what killed us in the games we lost last season (including the GB playoff game). 3rd and 7 is not much better than 3rd and 10. Might as well go for the first down by pass on the 2nd and 10.

by MikeCampy on Oct 17, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’d say its very predictable – inc on 1st down means we are going to run it on 2nd and 10 in order to try to set up a more manageable 3rd down. which makes sense, to a certain extent, but its SOOOO predictable at this point….

by RogerPodacter on Oct 17, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

But regardless of predictability, I still think it’s a flawed approach. Wasting a precious down just to make it 3rd and 7/8 instead of 3rd and 10 is bad. 3rd and 10 is not unmanageable. Its not much harder than 3rd and 7 or 8. The vast majority of runs do not produce more than 5 yards (even if you’re averaging 5ypc). So rather than run on 2nd and 10 and leave yourself in an automatic tough 3rd and medium/long, you might as well try to pass for a first down both times, IMO.

by MikeCampy on Oct 17, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice banner, Jason!

Mac: Wait a minute, the love of your life was a black women named Shadynasty?

"If I can get you to think twice, I'm in your head."
-Brian Dawkins

Nnamdi, Asante, DRC; The Three Graces...charm, beauty, and creativity.

The 2011 Philadelphia Eagles:
"JUST WHEN I THOUGHT I WAS OUT...THEY PULL ME BACK IN"
-Michael Corleone

by immynimmy on Oct 17, 2011 11:30 AM EDT reply actions  

It's pronounced Sha'Dynasty...

Asshole.

El Donkerino (if you're not into the whole brevity thing).
I miss me some Brian Dawkins :( ... but Coleman played pretty good

by El Donkerino on Oct 17, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Getting your playmakers on the field.

The NFL has become a matchup league. It used to be about which team could line up in a set and still gain yards even when the defense knew what was coming…now it is about trying to catch the defense in personnel mismatches by no huddles.

Why do people always think I'm playing the Race Card???
Is it because I'm black???

by Qwest on Oct 17, 2011 11:32 AM EDT reply actions  

The reason for this

is that defenses have become so good that, if they truly know what’s coming, they can stop it. An OC must create good matchups or you won’t score a single first down in the modern NFL.

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant

by NJBammer on Oct 17, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

What? There’s more offense than ever in the NFL. Defenses are currently way behind offensive schemes and personnel. Not to mention the rules. Scoring has been up at least the last 5 years.

The Jruth shall be told.

by packimop on Oct 17, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you read my post?

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant

by NJBammer on Oct 17, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes. And I disagree, because everyone can throw the ball all over the place. How does this equate to “defenses have become so good that, if they truly know what’s coming, they can stop it.”

Well they know what’s coming, a pass, and they can’t stop it.

The Jruth shall be told.

by packimop on Oct 17, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

The reason that offenses are so good is because they have more flexibility and therefore unpredictability than ever. If the defense knows you are going to throw a deep post to your #1 WR, they are very likely going to stop it. There are very, very, very few players so good that they can line up and tell you exactly what they are going to do and not have a modern NFL defense still be helpless.

“They know it’s a pass, and still can’t stop it” can illustrate my point. If you are running the ball, and they know you are running the ball, there are very few possibilities open. You have only a couple of real options to run the ball, usually only one. He can only go so many different places. For a short time, maybe he can succede, but over any large number of carries, if they know it’s a run, most defenses can stop you simply because there are only so many different ways to run the ball.

When you pass, there are many more choices. There are as many as 5 different targets, with so many different ways to deliver the ball at so many different spots the possibilities are nearly limitless from a practical standpoint. Passing gives a good QB and OC so much more room to create novelty and suprise, and thereby increase the odds of success.

Anyone who watches the NFL will note that you very seldom see the same passing play done more than once or maybe twice in a game. Why is this? For the reason I said, in the NFL if they know what’s coming, they can generally stop it. It’s only the variety provided by the multiple WRs that allows for OCs to throw the ball all over the place. I hope that makes sense because I’ll not write any more on this topic.

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant

by NJBammer on Oct 17, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for making my argument why offenses are better than defenses.

The Jruth shall be told.

by packimop on Oct 18, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I tend to agree with you, here, Qwest. With the strength and speed of the players on the field today, in most cases the RB can hold his own and doesn’t need the set-up man in a FB. It makes more sense to exploit gaps in the middle of the field with more athletic WRs than to use up a player who’s main purpose is to blow up the second level. The game’s just gotten too quick for these behemoths.

by D-Menace on Oct 17, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

…but that tried and true old pro set is rarely used at this point. I guess the question is why?

I would venture it’s because fullbacks are a dying breed. Off the top ot their head, can anyone name me 5 very good and active (So Weaver doesn’t count) fullbacks?
All I got is Vonta Leach, Le’ron McClain, Lousaka Polite….and after that I got nothing.

"If I can get you to think twice, I'm in your head."
-Brian Dawkins

Nnamdi, Asante, DRC; The Three Graces...charm, beauty, and creativity.

The 2011 Philadelphia Eagles:
"JUST WHEN I THOUGHT I WAS OUT...THEY PULL ME BACK IN"
-Michael Corleone

by immynimmy on Oct 17, 2011 11:37 AM EDT reply actions  

no idea how to spell this – the guy on ATL – ovie mughelli?

by RogerPodacter on Oct 17, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gah, can’t believe I forgot him.

"If I can get you to think twice, I'm in your head."
-Brian Dawkins

Nnamdi, Asante, DRC; The Three Graces...charm, beauty, and creativity.

The 2011 Philadelphia Eagles:
"JUST WHEN I THOUGHT I WAS OUT...THEY PULL ME BACK IN"
-Michael Corleone

by immynimmy on Oct 17, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

if it makes you feel better, its the ONLY one i could think of haha

by RogerPodacter on Oct 17, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kuhn

Men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, for everyone can see and few can feel. Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are-Il Principe

I would go to battle any time with these guys-MV7

by TricksterG on Oct 17, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s green bay. Pack could make klecko look that good.

I like turtles.

by Bleediots on Oct 17, 2011 12:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Haha, Klutts.

"Even those invested in the idea that the journey is the destination may feel they've taken a train to nowhere." - Terry Lawson

by waterfield on Oct 17, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's a thought : look it up.

"Even those invested in the idea that the journey is the destination may feel they've taken a train to nowhere." - Terry Lawson

by waterfield on Oct 17, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

The need has dropped, so they’re not being searched for. I’m sure there’s many other talented FBs out there, just the fact is they’re not in vogue any more.

In about 2-3 years, we’ll see a true power team emerge again, and the copycat league will recycle.

But I think Reid still has the right idea on offense. 5 offensive linemen are the only players excused from being a playmaker. Otherwise, flood the field with talent, throw in a scrambling QB to force an additional scrambling concern, and set them up for big plays.

I would like to thank my hands for being so great, for allowing me to type this post.

by corn on the kolb on Oct 17, 2011 11:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I seriously doubt you’ll ever see true power teams in the NFL ever again unless the rules are modified against WR’s and QB’s.

The Jruth shall be told.

by packimop on Oct 17, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right, they’re just not in demand. I don’t know that the quality of fullbacks has dropped.

Follow Bleeding Green Nation on Twitter & Facebook. Did you get your copy of the 2011 Eagles Annual yet?

by JasonB on Oct 17, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because it is the most effective set. No one set will be used 100% of the time, but the more one set is effective, the more it will be used. At some point, the effectiveness of that set will diminish until a different set will show higher returns and will start to be used more and more.

Remember the days when the most effective WR was the #1 WR? Over the past few years, you can argue the slot receiver (ie Welker) is the most effective, since he goes against a poorer quality of defender than the #1. The Nickleback is the new secret weapon, and all teams must have a good one to be a good defense. It doesn’t matter if you can totally shut down the #1 and #2 guy if the #3 guy is gashing you over and over…

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant

by NJBammer on Oct 17, 2011 11:41 AM EDT reply actions  

Congrats Philly. You kicked our fucking ass and exposed our mediocre offense led by our terrible QB. But hey i’m still hopeful.

Men and Football. The two greatest creations known to women!

by RedskinsGirl on Oct 17, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks!

Follow Bleeding Green Nation on Twitter & Facebook. Did you get your copy of the 2011 Eagles Annual yet?

by JasonB on Oct 17, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Always.....

A pleasure.

It's never easy being an Eagle fan........but I'll be damned if I ever stop.

the day we only score 3 points with this offense, is the day ill give everyone a dollar haha
by bleedgreen89 on Sep 16, 2011 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions

by JJeaglerooter on Oct 17, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

same with having an elite speed TE who can split out wide. It works until teams build into their defense a way of effectively managing these guys.

On a similiar thread, I bet we’ll see a decrease in the Brandon Jacob style bruiser backs, and more and more of these guys who are great in space.

And then we’ll see teams going for linebackers with speed to deal.. then offensive linemen who can push these guys around easily.

And then some team somewhere will rediscover how easy it is to run on teams with undersized guys for 5-6 yards a carry and momentum will shift.

I would like to thank my hands for being so great, for allowing me to type this post.

by corn on the kolb on Oct 17, 2011 11:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

On a similiar thread, I bet we’ll see a decrease in the Brandon Jacob style bruiser backs, and more and more of these guys who are great in space.

that makes a lot of sense. offenses are going to spread the field a lot more with their 3 WR sets so this in turn should also spread the defense out. it would be better to have a smaller, quicker RB who can make that first guy miss, rather than a big, slower guy who can run over/through the DL.

but it is kind of funny how any time you take an idea to focus on a Defense’s weakness, there is a counter move to marginalize it.

by RogerPodacter on Oct 17, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Reid

Giving a lot of hints that they are trying to get some deals sone (trades). After talking about Samuel…..

Formerly BWestFactor
FLY #7 FLY !

by ShadyMcVickFactor on Oct 17, 2011 12:12 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m less inclined to give up Asante than ever to be honest. I haven’t been impressed by DRC. He might be better in a starting role than he is now, but any way you slice it that’s a downgrade.

Follow Bleeding Green Nation on Twitter & Facebook. Did you get your copy of the 2011 Eagles Annual yet?

by JasonB on Oct 17, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmm interesting

Ive actually liked what Ive been seeing from Cro, for the most part. He is learning a new position, but he’s already dropped 2 INTs.

Going forward though I think I would rather Cro on the outside with Nnamdi in future years. I love Asante, but he is a one trick pony and the obvious, his contract.

Formerly BWestFactor
FLY #7 FLY !

by ShadyMcVickFactor on Oct 17, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is why I'd like to see the Eagles do what the Steelers do

They don’t have any FBs but instead they keep an extra tight end. Have a blocking specialist TE play in the FB spot when you need him. Drafting a player like Havili doesn’t really have much use. You put somebody there because they can block well, not because they’re a little bit more dangerous with the 5 touches they get per year. You could have some pretty awesome goal line packages if you could line up Harbor, Celek, and Donald Lee and have them all as potentially eligible receivers.

by Turd.Ferguson on Oct 17, 2011 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

I read this and completely understood it

I had to look at the NFL as a whole, and kind of look at the history of the NFL.

The way of the NFL goes in cycles, and right now it’s definitely heading towards a more spread offense type of ‘way’.

"When life hands you lemons, make a profit." - Chet Cashley

"Float like a Butterfly, sting like a Bee; Make sure you got the ball in your hands, or else you won’t get a TD." - Joe Theismann

by Ralf E Chubbs on Oct 17, 2011 12:58 PM EDT reply actions  

i just saw this on NFP

And thought instantly about the Colts. I find it interesting that the Pats get credit for making 2 TE’s popular last year into this year. I was talking to a coach about those stats and sent him this-

The Pats, Saints and Panthers use Ace sets more than most, and all 3 are in the top 5 in yds/game. Peyton ran Ace for years in Indy, but with that no huddle “check with me” system he’s made famous, so no one really copied them. Then the Pats used Ace a lot last year, and now everyone’s using it. Everyone knows Belichick is ahead of the game, and apparently they knew the Colts staff was getting by on the talent of their QB.

They were right- no other QB could do what Peyton was doing with next to no talent, and now we’re seeing proof of that. The Colts were an awful team who happened to have the best ever at the most important position. Now they’re just awful.

by dannymac56 on Oct 17, 2011 1:13 PM EDT reply actions  

as far as the why part

I think it’s mostly cyclical, but you could argue that pass protection has become a premium and offenses want more speed to force the blitz-callers of the world to think twice.
Two good ways to counter a pass rush: the 3 step drop routes are easiest to run with a 3rd WR in the game, typically a quick slot guy and develop so quickly it’s hard for teams to get to the QB before the ball is away.
Then there’s Ace sets. have 2 TE’s stretches the alignment and forces a decision by your contain rusher- are you gonna put him out in a 9 and leave that bubble at the C gap, or are you gonna bump down head-up on the TE and get chipped on your way to the QB.

by dannymac56 on Oct 17, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

If you're going to pass anyway, might as well add more targets

3 WR’s can spread the coverage thinner and provide the QB with more outlets that can do damage. You still have the RB and TE to either block or go short if all your downfield guys are covered. Also 3 WR’s mean 3 different routes to run and more possibility of getting the defense to mess up its coverage.

"Verde que te quiero verde..."
Το πράσινο είναι ζωή!
That's right, I bleed green multiculturally
"if you shut someone down with class, it's more effective" - Udalango

by Rabbit T on Oct 17, 2011 1:52 PM EDT reply actions  

I think a lot of it has to do with speed and playing to your playmakers’ skillset. AFAIK the spread originated in high school then slowly permeated its way into college and finally it is starting to take over the NFL. Players are faster nowadays so the passing game really allows teams to use that offensive speed to their advantage.

These are learned traits (basically) from high school, and with more teams playing the spread in college, it basically is a breeding ground for speed players who then take their talents to the NFL. As someone put it quite succinctly a long time ago, “speed kills.”

by J. Wil on Oct 17, 2011 2:11 PM EDT reply actions  

"Space Players"

This Grantland article is pretty good and informative, I think.

Interestingly, Belichek and the Pats seem to be getting tons of production from the TE position—Hernandez and Gronkowski seem to be “in space” quite a bit when I’ve watched them. They also have Welker, referenced in the article.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7064975/darren-sproles-rise-space-player

by OTP on Oct 17, 2011 5:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Another reason the 3-1-1 set is popular because its flexible. When you want a classic running set with a fullback type you can simple accomplish this by moving your te across the formation. The Giants do this with Bear Pascoe about 5 times a game at least.

by DoctorK16 on Oct 17, 2011 7:43 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions  

while the negadelphians and mediots were sleeping throughout the last decade...

…the league quietly fell in line with what’s known as “the passing premium.” the most successful run/pass balance was found to be about 60-65% pass in general (assuming an even score; the balance varies on personnel, score, clock, and down/yds to go). this fact was demonstrated years ago amidst the cries of idiots yelling at andy reid about “establishing the run.” (andy reid’s failure with the “passing premium” was that the premium varies on down, with its lowest value on first down, and andy reid disproportionately called for passing on 1st, which in turn increased the rate of 2nd and long and 3 and outs, which probably explains what was really flipping out everyone about the reid-mcnabb regime. but i digress.)

everyone on the bill walsh tree knew that passing was more valuable than running given an even score. all of those coaches, the holmgren descendents, the any reid descendents, passed more than ran. belichick did too despite being a descendent of Parcells. belichick passed 57% of the time his first year as HC of the Pats. two years later the pats threw 61%. the years his teams dominated the league the pats were skewed towards the run, sure, but that was only because these belichick teams exploded offensively via the pass to grab a lead early every game. then after gaining an early lead they would sit on a lead with running, burning more clock, reducing turnovers. this is of course a formula very familiar to reid-era eagles fans. look at the pats’ pass percentages with a tie score those years.

unlike baseball statistical analysis was relatively late to the professional ranks of football. if you want any evidence of this, consider how recent stats geeks are in the NFL fandom and then consider that pro baseball has had a culture of stats geeks going back to the 19th century. after the stats geekery arrived in the NFL (e.g., teams hiring SAS as consultants to bring software and analytic techniques circa 2000) you had coaches eventually finding out why the passing premium worked: it was the mismatches in passing schemes that produced better risk/reward ratios. simply put, you’re putting more pass catchers on the field more often and getting them involved in catching short passes that are more frequently completed and less frequently quashed by sacks. And when you put a 3rd WR or a RB with great pass-catching ability on the field (like Brian Westbrook, who could block and then roll out for a checkdown or a screen) the opponent puts out a lesser athlete in the form of a nickel back. the offense gets better, the defense gets worse. it’s an automatic mismatch. this is the evolution of the passing premium beyond merely passing more often. oh and let’s not forget 3 WRs spreads a defense and makes the RB more potent as a rusher.

the league has pretty uniformly bought into the insight bill walsh made so many decades and lombardi trophies ago: short sharp passing keeps the chains moving. rule changes favoring the offense

by 1993Heel on Oct 17, 2011 11:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Philadelphia Eagles.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Eagle_small
NFC bEAST Eternal Thread #52: For who? For what?
Oldschool_small
A Different Kind of Eagles Redraft
Baldeagle_small
Are the Eagles getting better at drafting?
Dogbert_small
Building the 53-Man Roster: Part 13(!) of 53
Hill_small
Mock Bleacher Report Article

Recent FanPosts

Small
I know I know but what about this guy
Mickey-mouse-trap-graphicshunt
NFC bEAST Eternal Thread #51.5: ASCII art is awesome.
Small
2012: The Season of No Excuses
Small
LeSean McCoy, Arian Foster, Matt Forte, Ray Rice or another running back: Who is the best?
Small
All-time mock draft on MtD
Small
Bell is out.. Now what???

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Bgnqr_small JasonB

Editors

Img_1084_small Bob_Q

Westy2_small Route36

Pumpkin_small JimmyK

Briandawkins1_small Ben_Larivee

Fb_small Patrick Wall