The combine
by Joe_D on Jan 31, 2011 7:34 PM EST
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PrintA couple of things about the combine since combine season is coming
1. The 40 yard dash is the second most over rated test and here's why:
a) How often does a player run 40 yards? How often does a player run 40 yards in a STRAIGHT line with the same mechanics they use in a 40 yard test?
b) Let's build on that for a second. One of the brightest soccer strength and conditioning coaches noticed something with his players. He noticed ever speed/agility drill he implemented with his players didn't seem to translate on the field. It DID make them faster at the drills they progressed, but not so much on the field.
His remedy? He made his players start doing drills dribbling a soccer ball instead of just straight up running. The results were much better why? Because the motor patterns learned while running without a ball weren't the same as running WITH a ball.
Now, the same goes for football players. The motor patterns for running in a perfect line without a football are totally different then when you have 250 lb players in your face/in your way. That's why there's a clocked 40 speed and a game time speed.
A good example is DeAngelo Hall and DeSean Jackson. If I remember correctly Hall actually had a better 40 time but we all watched with out naked eyes DeSean Jackson completely outran DeAngelo Hall who had an ANGLE on DeSean!
DeSean clocked in at sub 4.4s but his game speed is obviously a LOT faster. When he gets into the open field he is not running in a direct straight line, and obviously no one can catch him.
It's an absolute embarassment that talent scouts will have players fly up the draft board after a good 40 time or have them spiral downwards because of a bad one.
One last thing I wanted to mention about a 40 time is that it CAN be manufactured to a degree. There are strength exercises, drills, and even technique can award you a better time (Jimmy if I would have known you were going to tryout for the Soul, I would've helped you lol)
2. The Bench Press
Technically there really is no exercise that is "sport specific", but if you try and find one that's close to the movements you make in sports. The flat bench, going straight up and down, is not something you do in sports, or football. The Incline bench, is actually a better upper body strength test because the range of motion mimics sports movements much better. Although, truth be told, you use much more hips, lower back, glutes and hammies in football than you do upper body.
The other issue with the bench test is that after 15 or so reps the exercise because an endurance test. It's actually not even an absolute strength indicator!
My best recorded bench is 370 @ 200 lbs, my training partner can bench 450 @ BW 181. His muscle make up is much more fast twitch and can only do 225 maybe 20 times. My recorded record is 23. Obviously, he's much stronger than me at a much lower body weight. The rep test would not suggest that.
The shuttle and cone test are the same thing. You don't use the same motor patterns you do in football, they can also be coached to have better times also. The broad jump and vertical -- same story.
The reason why I posted this is because when we start talking about draft prospects I don't want to hear "OMG, so and so wasn't that great of a WR but WOW his 40 time really intrigues me."
I want to see intelligent discussions more along the lines of "He demonstrated good speed on the field and runs good routes.:
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This is the best post you have ever written.
It is informative, McNabb-free, and filled with your interesting perspective on the (profound) limitations of these “tangibles.” That said, I still hate “high-motor,” but you are right—“good speed on the field and runs good routes” are things hard-working scouts could measure. If a 40 time was all one needed to succeed, Willie Gault and Rocket Ismail would be miles better than Jerry Rice. And MMIBTRW (Mike Mamula is better than Reggie White).
"You have been banned from Big Blue View...for rightly telling us a) what a shitsack blog we run and b) what a shitsack team we root for"
Q: What do a leaky tampon and Sean McDermott's defense have in common?
A: They are equally ineffective in the red zone.
by EvilBanner on Jan 31, 2011 7:43 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
rec.
thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro
"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb
EB I actually think my McNabb pieces are master pieces :)
BUT, strength and conditionoing is my passion and it has been for at least the past 5 years of the 10 I’ve been working out
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
I vote that you stay away from supa5
Cause this was a fantastic post
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
I can tell.
This is really well done.
"You have been banned from Big Blue View...for rightly telling us a) what a shitsack blog we run and b) what a shitsack team we root for"
Q: What do a leaky tampon and Sean McDermott's defense have in common?
A: They are equally ineffective in the red zone.
Ha!
Don’t push it Joe. Leave the past behind us :-)
Nice Article. I, as well, have a passion for strength and conditionning the body and can appreciate your thoughts on the subject. You’re right, these tests are very limited as evaluation tools.
FLY #7 FLY !!!
Willie Gault (before his knee issues) and Rocket Ismail were both notably faster than Rice even at his prime. What made Rice so great was his fanatical devotion to running routes with technical precision and knowing exactly where he should be at a certain time.
A good example is DeAngelo Hall and DeSean Jackson. If I remember correctly Hall actually had a better 40 time but we all watched with out naked eyes DeSean Jackson completely outran DeAngelo Hall who had an ANGLE on DeSean!
DeSean clocked in at sub 4.4s but his game speed is obviously a LOT faster
Desean ran an official 4.35 and Hall ran a 4.37. Your point still stands. If you’re fast but can’t play, you will suck but if you CAN play, speed just helps. So if you give me two guys that have equal ability but one is faster, obviously the faster guy has a bit more potential.
Well didnt Terrell Davis
HAve a God awful 40 time? I think that would ahve been a better example
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
Yeah I think he did
Anquan Boldin, Emitt Smith, Jerry Rice, all pretty slow 40s. The best one is when a ESPN expert drools over a 4.7 40 from a DE. A DE will NEVER run 40 yards in a straight line in his career unless someone hits him in the #s from the 40 yard line with no one in from of him.
You’re right though, bad example, since I thought Hall was a Sub 4.3
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
Or that saftey from USC his name escapes me
everyone busted a nut at his 40 I mean sure that would help a safety but only if he shed his pads could he do that again.
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
Taylor Mays
I thought the same thing. His knock was he couldnt cover, I was PRAYING the Eagles didn’t draft him
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
ahhh thats right.
I mean sure it was impressive at his size but big deal Id rather have a saftey that makes the tackle before he has to show off a 40 time
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
I loathe
Ernie sims and his false promise of hope
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
We gave up a 5th round pick. Why would you expect more than 5th round pick production.
"What a gorgeous dog. What do you feed him?"
Ah I thought Hall was a sub 4.3 guy
I knew he was a speedster.
R, You missed the point slightly. While that is one of my arguements the main thing about a 40 is that it’s not the same movement pattern. You can be REALLY fast running in a straight line but how fast are you with pads and 250 lb LBs in your face? Different movement and the dichotomy between a fast 40 track guy and a guy like DeSean who can run circles in the secondary is huge
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
The Wonderlich Test
Although the Wonderlich test isn’t part of the combine activities, it is administered during that time. The test is bogus. Dan Marino had a 14 and Jim Kelly had a similar score. Ryan Fitzpatrick had a near perfect score. So does that mean Fitzpatrick’s decision making is 3 times faster than Marino’s?
Kevin Curtis had the highest score since they’ve administered the test. But how does that translate to his WR skills?
I want intelligent football players on the Eagles. But a “pen and paper” test isn’t what you want to use to assess football players. Otherwise, Myron Rolle, a Rhodes Scholar, would have been a #1 pick.
Don't Sweat the Technique...
No argument
There’s something to be said about football instincts too. The wonderlic isn’t as talked about as the 40 or bench test though. McNabb’s was kinda low too I think 15? The avg QB score is in the upper 20s.
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
I think that when you get a shitty score it tells you something.
VY got like a fucking 7. I mean I could prolly get a damn 7
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
LOlL i thought it was a 2?
I agree to that extent. I tookt he wonderlic test and got a 24 or a 25. The questions are pretty easy, if you get less than 15, it’s pretty bad.
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
If I saw a 2 I would be in utter shock.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/draft/2006-03-01-young-wonderlic_x.htm
We were both wrong it was a 6
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
It is just one criteria in a list of many. For most players it probably doesn’t matter that much as long as they have a certain score/basic intelligence but Young is flat out stupid. Yeah, that does matter when you have to learn a ton of information, retain it, and are no longer physically dominate than the others around you.
To quote Marc Jackson, "you're better than that, Udalango"
You’d do better than Young. I just think the guy has more emo problems than intellectual problems. I would have still drafted him based on what I saw against USC in that historic game.
If, and that’s a big “if”, VY ever gets some balance in his life, he can still be a productive QB. Dude is just too much of a wussy.
Don't Sweat the Technique...
When he pump faked the shit outta that safety and just ran under him
I was so happy i hate USC. I think he just needs a good support group in the team he was great that first year until he faced some hardships.
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
Most of us would probably get way, way better than a 7.
I took a practice/fake one for fun once and it seemed really easy.
Yeah...
Joe, I agree with your premise. The 40 and the bench tests are way overrated.
I just added the Wonderlich because I noticed it is talked about more than in the past. McNabb had a relatively low score like Marino and Kelly. However, the guy went to Syracuse so I doubt he was a dummy.
Don't Sweat the Technique...
Could mean a few things
Most likely it means Fitzpatrick is just a better test taker and was very well-prepared. He’s a Harvard guy after all.
The problem with the test is that it’s the same as the 40, it doesn’t translate well to what actually happens on the field.
AR should have to wear a Flava Flav necklace until he learns how to manage a fucking clock.
True
But bro trust me on this one, if you get anything lower than a 15 on the test, you’re not very educated. Most of the questions are pretty simple. 50 is actually really damn good cause it is timed and you have to remember pretty much all the basic math which probably wasn’t too hard for a Harvard grad.
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
Fitzpatrick is just heads and tails smarter than a Marino/Kelly/McNabb even if a better test-taker and well-prepared. That only takes you so far.
Yep, and that doesn't make him a better football player.
I’m smarter than the average NFL player. I haven’t checked any stats, but I’m positive, that according to any standardized testing, I"d come out WAY above the average. Now, if I were to step out on the field with them how would that translate into production? Well, I’d be smashed into the ground by someone, and despite the fact that I seem to be extremely not prone to injuries, I’d be testing that trait more than is prudent.
The point is that I really don’t care how smart these guys are. I played a lot of basketball growing up, and the best guy I ever played with in an organized game was dumb as rocks.
Rocks are smart dude
You don’t survive for thousands of years without knowing what you’re doing…
FLY #7 FLY !!!
rocks are natural born killers
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
Agreed however it does show alot..
I think the eagles should draft football players, I mean Coleman is an inferior athlete, but the guys always near the ball… That’s what I want, a guy who’s always around the ball and always making a play..
Now being super talented and doing that (polamalu, matthews etc) is a plus.
thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro
"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb
I think you are misunderstanding or misinterpreting something.
Nobody who would pick a player solely based on his Wonderlic score would ever rise to the position where he could.
The test is just a way of trying to quantify “intelligence”, rather than merely rely on real time impression.
You don’t really want players in the bottom 5% of your recruitment group on any kind of “pen and paper” test, do you?
"What a gorgeous dog. What do you feed him?"
Darius Heyward-Bey anyone?
Agree completely with the post.
I just looked up Heyward-Beys stats and laughed because of how pathetic they are, especially compared to Maclins
Heyward-Bey
2009-2010: 11G, 9 Rec, 125 Yrds, 1 TD
2010-2011: 15G, 26 Rec, 366 Yds, 1 TD
Maclin
2009-2010: 15G, 55 Rec, 762 Yrds, 4 TD
2010-2011: 15G, 70 Rec, 964 Yds, 10 TD
Maclin ran a 4.45 40 yard dash compared to Heyward-Bey’s 4.30
child please
by worldphuckinchamps on Jan 31, 2011 8:15 PM EST reply actions
welllll to be fair
DHB did have to deal with Russel that first year
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
Ya but I figure we should at least
throw that in there. I mean a shot at Russell is always acceptable in my book
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
What I like about
DHB is , He wasnt even the best WR on his own team . Let alone the whole WR draft class.
Not only Maclin,
Harvin, Nicks, Britt, Crabtree. Literally the worst choice they couldve possibly made.
subject line
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
He misread "The Portrait of Dorian Gray."
Somewhere there is a painting of Al Davis that is young and beautiful and never ages. While he looks like a ghoul.
by Tracer Bullet on Jan 31, 2011 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
.........isnt that how most pictures work lol
but If what your saying is he will never die then oh shit
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
This is the most horrible thing I've ever seen.
"You have been banned from Big Blue View...for rightly telling us a) what a shitsack blog we run and b) what a shitsack team we root for"
Q: What do a leaky tampon and Sean McDermott's defense have in common?
A: They are equally ineffective in the red zone.
I know thank god I put a subject line so you can minimize that shit
Η κόλαση δεν έχει μυστικά
"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
You have lived a sheltered lif. Be thankful.
"What a gorgeous dog. What do you feed him?"
life
"What a gorgeous dog. What do you feed him?"
Did a Raiders fan throw him off a cliff?
Rivals beware
by starship 007 on Jan 31, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
haha funny story
TO find that I searched “Al davis is a zombie”
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
It is an awful picture
But the man is 82. This looks recent (past 2-3 years) so I will give him a pass.
it was the press conference
where he fired Cable so like a month ago
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
Don't worry.
The “All Black and Fast team 2010” is hot off the presses!
http://heismanpundit.com/2010/06/24/the-fastest-players-in-college-football-2010/
"You have been banned from Big Blue View...for rightly telling us a) what a shitsack blog we run and b) what a shitsack team we root for"
Q: What do a leaky tampon and Sean McDermott's defense have in common?
A: They are equally ineffective in the red zone.
the 20/60 yd shuffles and 3 cone drill are much better indicators of speed/agility. And can someone tell me why in the hell they have offensive lineman do the broad jump and the vertical jump? Why the hell would any coach need to measure that??
"If I can get you to think twice, I'm in your head."
-Brian Dawkins
"Yeah, I like to hit people"
-Brandon Graham
Broad jump and vertical are more measures of explosiveness and leg power for the big uglies. A lineman with no burst and power in his legs is next to worthless.
A combo of the "Big 3"...
…deadlift, squat and bench press (if you wanted to add power cleans, that might do) would give a better overall impression added to the broad jump and vert. results.
"You have been banned from Big Blue View...for rightly telling us a) what a shitsack blog we run and b) what a shitsack team we root for"
Q: What do a leaky tampon and Sean McDermott's defense have in common?
A: They are equally ineffective in the red zone.
I agree
The squat is one of the most important lifts for an lineman but its mysteriously left out. One thing I’m thinking of is that they purposely leave it out so that the players won’t hurt themselves trying to impress the scouts.
I can only imagine the torn up knees from the multitude of failed 700+ squat attempts!
"You have been banned from Big Blue View...for rightly telling us a) what a shitsack blog we run and b) what a shitsack team we root for"
Q: What do a leaky tampon and Sean McDermott's defense have in common?
A: They are equally ineffective in the red zone.
College strength coaches do do that
TO try and pimp their name and their athletes . Usually really poor form though
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
I wouldn’t say I completely agree that the 40 and bench press are COMPLETELY over rated, but I do think that they need to be changed.
For the 40, have skill positions run 20 yards. It gives you a good sense of their speed while focusing more on the explosiveness of the runner as opposed to their straight line speed.
I also think that their should be tiers for bench press. I always wondered why lineman and DB’s lifted the same weight because as you said it becomes just an endurance test at that point. Throw at least 350 on there and get a better approximation of a players str. as opposed to endurance.
Yeah. I agree
Bench to body weight ratio or something like that. Watching a 325 pound lineman bench 225 is like watching a 200 pound dude bench with a 25 pounder on each side of the bar.
"You have been banned from Big Blue View...for rightly telling us a) what a shitsack blog we run and b) what a shitsack team we root for"
Q: What do a leaky tampon and Sean McDermott's defense have in common?
A: They are equally ineffective in the red zone.
to be considered "Strong"
its 1.25 times body weight. Or at least thats what I have heard. This seems to be Joes area so maybe he can tell me if Im right or not
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
Theres no real ratio for what is considered strong in football, so many things make up the player, he could have a slightly weaker bench compared to a fantastic squat or vice versa.
But the bench press at the combine gives almost no information, they need to get to a weight where most of the players aren’t able to get more then 10 reps, the lower amount completed the better as it gives you a better approximation of their one rep max.
I was saying
just from a lifting perspective. In my weight training class in highschool thats what we were told. If you could do 1.25 at a lift you were strong at that lift. Which at the time for me was only 169 pounds so I was “strong” lol
This could just be a load of shit that my weight training coach told me though
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
It's strong for a normal person
but not for a world class athlete or a strength athlete.
I think Sheldon Brown told me he benched 330 which isn’t that big of a bench in weight lifting communities. But he was very built and he could hit like a truck. So I don’t love the bench as a strength indicator for an athlete. Plus, absolute strngth isn’t the most important type of strenth it’s more of explosive strength aka how fast can you demonstrate strength.
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
"Functional strength" is the term I hear the most.
But yea I wasnt trying to say use that as a judge for football players its just what I heard. And If I were to put a ratio on the bench at the combine thats what would make sense to me. But I dont lift i run so its a different world for me
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"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
Functinal strength
Is another gimmick flavor of the month that health clubs use. While there are certainly different exercises that help “functional strength” doing weird shit on a bosu ball is just circus training
But Yeah I understand yoru question, 1.25 bw bench is pretty stout for most people
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
Funtional strength like strength that
is best applied to what you needed it for. Like GSPs rushfits helps functional strenth for things you would need in a fight.
Like a sprinter training for an explosive jump off the blocks.
Η κόλαση δεν έχει μυστικά
"Do you know where we are going?" she said.
"To solve the mystery of the eternal hereafter, I imagine," I replied.
-- _The Gods of Mars_
40 times aren't even accurate
They could go to machine-timed 40s, but agents wouldn’t allow that. And because football people are hidebound traditionalists.
I’m more interested in the “turn and burn” for DBs and the 10-yard splints for linemen. And power cleans would be a much better indicator of strength.
Last I checked...
They were done digitally? Isn’t that why Chris Johnson had the best 40 since they started the electronic timing?
What events would you put in the combine if you were in charge?
If Revis has an Island, Asomugha should have a continent.
"beat the man in front of you, then attempt to seriously injure the quarterback."
"Reidtard" for president!!!!
40 times are only valuable in Madden.
"He wasn't an astronaut, he was a tv comedian! And he was just using space travel as a metaphor for beating his wife!"
Guys that do well
at the combine are like the people in school who do good on tests but have the commonsense of Astley P.
Cowboys suck.
Speed
Speed stretches defenses. Thats why 40 times are meaningful.
How often do you see a receiver run 40 yards down the field to stretch a defense?
RIP Jim Johnson, best ever.
by Imp on Feb 1, 2011 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
I see it often. What is it about Desean Jackson that d cordinators fear? His SPEED. Did you see the first play of the monday night game against the redskins? That wasnt good route running that was pure speed. I see receivers run 40, 50, 60, and 70 yards down the field
by d-jac and j-mac on Feb 1, 2011 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
Define ‘often’.
The only time a football player will run 40 yards in a straight line down the field is in something very good has happened or something very bad has happened.
Yes, DeSean Jackson is fast but what separates him is his agility, his ability to cut on a dime and maintain his speed.
DTMWTD
LOTS Of guys clock in with high 40 times
There are lots of WRs who have Jackson’s timed 40 speed.. Who runs as fast and as good as him in the open field?
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
I do wonder though if Jackson’s inability to run routes or do the right thing is limited by his intelligence a bit. Probably not but I would highly doubt if knows where he should be for a majority of the plays in Marty’s playback (say 85-90% of the play). You really can’t know though if the sloppy routes he runs though are due to just lack of Jackson’s effort or inability to know where he should be at. Probably much more the former than the later.
By all indications, he is dumb as rocks. They didn’t release his Wonderlic score & he has a rep at Berkeley as being a dummy.
Hi Al Davis,
I didnt know you had a computer.
Good article. 40 is probably the most useless test because there are almost no players who will ever run unimpeded in a straight line for 40 yards in an actual condition. Frankly I would be more interested if I was a coach in times of say a 25-yard tests with reliable times at 5, 10, and 25 yards and only realy for DBs and WRs. Maybe TEs.
We haven't always seen eye-to-eye, but this was a great post. Rec'd.
Totally agree. Combine freaks shoot up draft boards every year and it seems all the experts and some of the coaches forget that there is actual game film on all of these players. I am not at all versed in strength and conditioning, so it’s nice to have people who can break down what means something and what doesn’t when looking at measurables.
My question
is this: Why are these drills still used then if they arent really translated to the field? Is it because they are easily doctored or is there some other reason? Would we see these potential draft picks stock go down because of new testing?
You are absolutely right when you said these arent good indicators of what to do on the field. You bring up soccer (nice touch for me as Im a former soccer player) and drills that actually incorporated your technique are the most beneficial when it comes to translating your potential in the field of play. I cant even remember how many wind sprints I have done but it doesnt do jack shit for ball control and awareness.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
Eagles all the way!
I would go to battle with these guys anytime-Michael Vick
That's a good question
To be honest, America has been behind in strength and conditioning and sports science about 20 years compared to Eastern Europe. Lots of research that’s absolutely phenomenal dating back to the 70s yet, it never made it’s way over here.
What does sell well in America are gimmicky flavor of the month exercises and equipment though.
Trickster yeah lots of guys start practicing combine drills in high school and even college (actually colleges have a combine for HS students, it’s slightly different) So yeah, they can be doctored.
I don’t think the NFL is doing any research about coming up with new testing protocols but then again they probably wouldn’t be all that much of an upgrade — the true test is what you can do on the field.
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!
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