The Linc - Eagles Pursuit of Injured Players
by JasonB on Sep 8, 2010 9:03 AM EDT
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gonzo
is such a tool. remember that scene at the end of ‘waiting’ when the new guy goes off on the party and then BLASTS ryan reynolds character? i wanna do that to the gonz. i wanna like this guy but he tries TOO hard. i have 97.5 on all day at work but i actually prefer b101 over the vai and gonz show.
Maybe I’m alone in this, but I don’t understand the hatred people seem to have for Gonzo. I don’t read his columns with any regularity but I have yet to read one that really bothered me. This column from him isn’t anything special, but he’s written some decent stuff. What am I missing?
With the injuries article
I wholeheartedly agree. The same goes with the whole “diamond in the rough” strategy the Eagles take to drafting.
Sometimes it’s just better to take the player you know is decent and healthy, over the guy who could be great IF he recovers from the 10 surgeries he’s had.
At the same time, though, it’s not like many of them were really being counted on. The only time that strategy really hurt was with Stacy Andrews, and his problems may have been more than just injury related. It would have been nice if guys like Ingram and Marlin Jackson had panned out, but it’s no huge loss that they didn’t. I’m fine with the idea of trying to buy low on injured guys so long as you’re not counting on them to be important parts of the team.
Marlin Jackson was slated to be the starting free safety out of the gate…you just put all your trust into someone coming off 2 ACL tears to take the starting free safety job, and since that didn’t work out as usual we then have to hope that our rookie draft pick can take over and play at a high level. We still don’t know what Nate Allen will be like, if he’ll step up from preseason to regular season. It should be a huge deal when you fuck up like that, but they got away with it so far because Nate Allen looks pretty good right now. I don’t care that much if they waste a low draft pick on some injury troubled player to feed their obsession with ACL tears but the free agent signings are just stupid if you plan to use them as a starter right out of the gate.
The Eagles never said Marlin was supposed to start. He was only a low-risk veteran insurance policy in case Allen wasn’t ready and/or Macho was moved to CB. Where’d you get this nonsense that Marlin was slated to start from day one?
I put a dollar in a change machine. Nothing changed.
So were Moise Fokou and Juqua Parker.
When did first-team reps in minicamp indicate total job security? And did you seriously think Marlin was going to keep Nate Allen off the field?
I put a dollar in a change machine. Nothing changed.
Well my point is at that time when Marlin was the starting free safety we didn’t know much of anything about Nate Allen’s ability and how it translates from college to pro, and whether he’d be much of a competition at free safety or just a backup for the year. In hindsight after seeing him pan out through training camp and preseason we can all say he’d probably have beaten out Marlin. Overall what I’m trying to say here is it’s a bad idea to go into the offseason with your hopes of the quarterback of the secondary being placed on player coming off 2 ACL tears or the unpredictable rookie. They sort of got lucky so far that Nate Allen has really stepped up to the challenge, otherwise we could’ve been looking to another year with Macho or Demps.
Except...
a) you have no way of knowing which players are ‘decent’ and which are not
b) Injuries are a fact of the NFL. Ask McNabb and Westy, who usually missed a few ges a year. Ask Tom Brady or Carson Palmer. Ask Kevin Everett or David Pollack. If you’re griping about our late-round strategy, you need to realize that the fourth round on is basically a shot in the dark and that it really doesn’t hurt to take chances on higher-upside guys with a slightly elevated chance for injury. What do you have to lose at that point?
I put a dollar in a change machine. Nothing changed.
by alcatraz0109 on Sep 8, 2010 12:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think they can tell who is a good player, with perhaps more limited upside (say, Shawn Nelson), and an injured player — who, if fully recovered — can be great. In that case, I say draft Shawn Nelson instead of Ingram. Why not build from a strong foundation there. At least you don’t have to worry about him overcoming injury, THEN learning how to play in your system. Even if Shawn Nelson was injured during college, teams didn’t have him off their boards like Ingram.
But Jack Ike was another guy where we could have gotten a better (or more necessary) player with that pick but rolled dice on a guy who had a significant injury. With a 4th rounder, we could have gotten a much more solid contributor than the promise, perhaps, of a good CB. Look at our 4ths this year. Taking a flyer on Ike was not the best use of that pick.
Right
high ankle sprains, broken bones, hamstring injuries are one thing…serious knee injuries (the sin qua non of Eagles draft day leaps of faith) and other injuries involving the word “reconstruction” are what I think we should stay away from.
Now you’re getting into “we should have drafted Player X instead of Player Y” arguments.
What I am saying is that, in the late rounds of the draft, there’s not a lot of harm in taking a player with a heightened injury risk or longer injury history or who has come off serious surgery when you have a surplus at said position or you don’t need that player to perform right away.
You end up with the Ingrams and the Jacks sometimes, but you also might find a Bradley, a Westy, or a Buckhalter in there as well.
I put a dollar in a change machine. Nothing changed.
I get your drift
I’m feeling that: (1) the FO feels there is a surplus A LOT more than there actually is one, and (2) they really don’t get to say when “right away” is. Other circumstances may well dictate when that player needs to step up. Because of that, my point is get the guy who has the fewer doubts. I’m not going to say this approach would have alleviated our 6 MLB fiasco from last year, or the no FB situation from the year before. But it couldn’t have made it worse.
In a draft where maybe we have multiple picks per round, taking chances is OK. When you only have 1 (or fewer), you have to make them count.
Re: injuries article
With the injuries article
I wholeheartedly agree. The same goes with the whole "diamond in the rough" strategy the Eagles take to drafting.
Sometimes it’s just better to take the player you know is decent and healthy, over the guy who could be great IF he recovers from the 10 surgeries he’s had.
I have no problem at all with the strategy of using fourth- and fifth-round picks on guys who had “first-round talent” before their injuries. It’s not exactly as if guys with fifth-round talent are locks to be longterm contributors either.
I guess you could argue that they might land their next Trent Cole or Brent Celek if they just pick safe in the 5th round, but I think that’s what they’re trying to do. All drafting is an inexact science, labeling a collection of low-risk failures “disastrous” is wack journalism.
Plus the fact that Stewart Bradley tore his ACL at Nebraska in ’05 sort of shoots a hole in the entire theory.
Secretary of State for BGN aka "Most diplomatic man on this site," as appointed by Talon Talent
Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome
Difference there
Stew actually came back to play in college. Ike and Ingram did not.
Sapp I don’t like because I don’t like Clemson players, so I’m not pi$$ed abou them drafting him due to injury.
True, but I think it's kind of nitpicking ...
… as to when they’ve had a serious injury. I guess your logic is that if they’ve proven they can come back healthy then they’re draftable?
That’s fine. But for me, I don’t think you should stop looking for bargains because some don’t pan out. In the fourth and fifth round and beyond, everyone’s an imperfect prospect, whether they have an injury history or limited starting experience or played at a small school or don’t have the measureables. Occasionally you land a Cole or a Celek, but most don’t pan out.
Stacy Andrews was a clear mistake. That was a serious expenditure. But when you’re going that far down the ladder of draft picks, it’s all a crapshoot. And I’m sure we could expand the sample size and go around the NFL to find guys with injury histories that have turned out okay.
But regardless, the Eagles didn’t get much more drafting “safe” fourth and fifth rounders like Quintin Demps and Macho Harris than they did Jack Ike and Cornelius Ingram.
Secretary of State for BGN aka "Most diplomatic man on this site," as appointed by Talon Talent
Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome
I dunno
the Birds draft in an unconventional way. It seems clear in hindsight that one of the philosophies they have been following is drafting/signing players coming off injuries. I can’t think of a single example of this paying off, so we may see the last of that one.
On the other hand, it’s also pretty clear they feel fine with drafting players who are perceived as too small and therefore injury prone. This did not work with Bloom, but did with Jackson and Westbrook. Given their track record, particularly their recent record, I’m inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and know they aren’t gonna hit on every swing.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant
I think, we as Eagles fans
tend to be too hyper-focused on our teams moves, as opposed to the rest of the league. Other teams take chances on a) previously injured guys b) old vets trying to squeeze a few years out c) bad eggs looking for “redemption”.
We’ve gotten screwed on some injured players, but at least we don’t run a halfway house (Bengals) or overpay washed up vets (Skins). Overall, the FO’s actions speak for themselves. We are one of the most successful franchises in the league. No ring, but that can just as easily be attributed to coaching, tough breaks, and the footballs Gods.
It's "Kolb"ering time!
by oldasquick on Sep 8, 2010 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That's true
we are not the first time to go mining for talent and we won’t be the last. Whether they are guys with an injury history, character questions, coming from small schools or barely started in college, there are plenty of ways to try to pilfer talent on the cheap.
The key is the Eagles use fifth rounders on guys like this (which partially explains why they want so many) and not first rounders. If they did the Stacy Andrews thing a lot, I’d hate it.
Secretary of State for BGN aka "Most diplomatic man on this site," as appointed by Talon Talent
Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome
One thing I’ll say is that although the Eagles take an inordinate number of chances on injured players it never seems as if they are depending on said player for any production.
I'm not drunk I'm just drinking.
Exactly
If it doesn’t work out, it doesn’t impact us in any significant way, and if it works out, it’s gravy.
I put a dollar in a change machine. Nothing changed.
by alcatraz0109 on Sep 8, 2010 12:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m kind of surprised we have two people picking us yet nobody picking the Viks. I believe we are going to win on Sunday but the reason why I am surprised is because it seems like nobody can stop talking about Aaron Rodgers being MVP this year.
I would be excited about Schefter picking us, but his other picks are pretty bold. He like KC over San Diego, Lions over the Bears, and Seattle over San Fran. I think he was just going for the non-boring picks this week.
"I hate listening to people's dreams. It is like flipping through a stack of photographs. If I'm not in any of them and nobody is having sex, I just don't care. "
2009 Giants Draft
I’m starting to think that the 2009 draft was just a weak draft. The Eagles made 8 picks and only 3 are with the Eagles in any form. But 2010 draft looks good so far.
I'm not drunk I'm just drinking.
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