Could Jason Avant be the #1 receiver for the Giants?
by yomjoseki on Mar 9, 2010 2:49 AM EST
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PrintAll the stats on this page were taken from NFL.com or ProFootballFocus.com
Steve Smith wasn't a great receiver last year. He was just thrown to a lot.
Who is Steve Smith's statistical twin?
Reception % when targeted
Collie: 70.6%
Smith: 70.9%
Yards per reception
Collie: 11.3
Smith: 11.4
TDs
Collie and Smith both had 7
So what are the differences?
Yards after catch per reception
Collie: 4.2
Smith: 2.2
Drops?
Smith had 6 and Collie had 3.
Missed tackles (tackles evaded or broken)?
Seriously? Does Collie seriously win here? Yeah, he does. He had 5 missed tackles in 85 targets, whereas Smith had 3 in 151 targets. That means there's a 2% chance someone misses a tackle when going after this dude. Evasive!
Final lines for the season?
Steve Smith 107 catches, 1220 yards, 7 TDs
Austin Collie 60 catches, 676 yards, 7 TDs
Too bad Collie didn't make the Pro Bowl. He probably could've been if he was thrown to 151 times!
Jason Avant
Then again, this fanpost is happening because FreeBradshaw claimed Steve Smith was better than Jason Avant. How does Avant stack up? Keep in mind, Avant was targeted 55 times and Smith was targeted 151 times.
Catch % of targets
Avant 74.9% (sticky!), and if you remember from above, Smith was a very good 70.9%
Yards per catch?
Avant: 14.2
Smith: 11.4
Yards after catch on the season?
Avant: 5.0 per catch
Smith: 2.2 per catch (near the bottom of the league.
Drops
I knew Avant had good hands, but I didn't realize he wasn't credited with a dropped pass all season. Smith had 6.
Long catches?
Steve Smith had 14 catches of 20 yards or more, and 2 catches of 40 yards or more. Avant had 11 catches of 20 yards or more, and 2 catches of 40 yards or more. In about 1/3rd the targets.
Missed tackles
Both had 3.
So what's the big difference? Steve Smith was targeted as much as any receiver in the league (2 less targets than league leader Wes Welker)
Do stats tell everything? Naw. Hell naw.
But is Steve Smith a good receiver? Well, he got open enough to catch 107 passes. I guess that counts for something. Unfortunately, once the ball is in his hands, he's not running any further with it. He won't break a tackle, and he won't get the YAC. He doesn't get a lot of yards per catch, either.
So, he's decent, but his stats are massively inflated by his number of targets. Let's hope the Giants don't figure it out and start throwing to their better receivers!
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Nice stats, but remember
Around week 6 (can’t recall when exactly) teams started treating Smith like a #1 receiver, double coverage, rolling coverages to his side etc. Collie or Avant were never treated as #1’s.
Good point. I’d say Steve Smith started getting double covered around week 5, where his production fell off a cliff.
Weeks 1 – 4
Receptions per game: 8.5
TDs: 4
Yards per game: 102.75
Weeks 5-17
Receptions per game: 6.08
TDs: 3
Yards per game: 67.42
OK, so I guess we can agree that Steve Smith performs extremely well when no one decides to cover him.
I am the people's troll :3™
Jackson
does very well against the Giants when we decide not to cover him and he does less well when the Cowboys do cover him.
See my later post for unit comparsions.
by G Fan in England on Mar 9, 2010 4:35 AM EST up reply actions
not really….
It was because Hakeem Nicks was eating receptions. 44/47 catches were weeks 5-17. Smith was getting double covered somewhat..but he also wasn’t thrown to down the field. He was more of the slot WR, while HAM and Nicks were the outside guys.
Sorta like with Desean and Maclin “taking away” receptions for Avant
Smith was the #1 guy on the outside when Nicks was limited in the first 5 weeks. Nicks is a bigger faster guy, so he’ll be the guy on the outside.
Master of the squeegee
Hakeem Nicks....
"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."
A better comparsion
maybe to look at the WR units as a whole.
Eagles main 3 (Desean, Maclin and Avant) combined for 159 rec for 2516 yards (15.8 av) and 16 TD’s.
Giants main 3 (Smith, Nicks and Manningham) combined for 211 rec for 2832 yards and 18 TD’s.
The difference is Smith had 40 more catches than Jackson but Jackson had a higher average of over 7 yards.
Our two rookies Maclin and Nicks were similar in stats 56-773-4 compared to 47-790-6 and the number 3’s were close as well with Avant 41-587-3 to Manningham’s 57-822-5.
So both teams have a good young trio of WR’s to put on the field which causes mismatch issues for the defence.
In terms of the passing game the Eagles use the TE far more than the Giants do (although everyone on BBV want to use Boss more) as Celek was 76-971-8 compared to Boss’s 42-567-5.
So how about we call it a draw in terms of units!
by G Fan in England on Mar 9, 2010 4:33 AM EST reply actions
I'm willing to give it a draw
although I think it should be clear that DeSean’s upside is much higher than Steve Smiths. DeSean had two rushing TDs this year, one for over 50 yards, and I don’t have to remind Giants fans of his ability to return kicks. So he’s just used for more than the ‘typical’ WR role.
It’s interesting to note, and I mentioned this to Cowboy fans who now get hard on the mention of Miles Austin’s name, that the Eagles just spread the ball out a lot more, rather than forcing it to their “#1 WR”…DeSean or Maclin will likely NEVER have more than 7 catches a game. TO, when he was here, never had more than 8 catches in a game…we’re just not a team that gives one guy the ball 10+ times in a game.
"EFF YOU, WE'RE WINNING ANYWAY!!!!!!" (Bye, Dawk)
I agree
Desean is more of a gamebreaker than S Smith.
However, I wonder how much better Jackson’s stats will get and that 2009 could be his best year.
I see Maclin and Nicks becoming the number 1 receivers on our teams, with Jackson and Manningham the speed guys and Avant and Smith the middle of the field guys.
I also agree with you that the dropoff from Austin to the Cowboys no 2 receiver is much bigger than the drop off on the Giants and Eagles teams.
by G Fan in England on Mar 9, 2010 8:09 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I agree on Maclin and Nicks
DeSean can get shut down with a safety devoted to him over the top, and he’s limited in the routes he can run…he doesn’t do much over the middle.
I see Maclin becoming more of the possession guy…same with Nicks for you guys
"EFF YOU, WE'RE WINNING ANYWAY!!!!!!" (Bye, Dawk)
LOL!
he did it! Yes….“maybe if they threw to Avant, he’s have 107 catches”. Maybe not too.
Good biased try tho. I’d only take Avant on the Giants cuz he’s a proven WR.
Buuuuut, Nicks, HAM and quite possibly, Pharoahe this year show that…no, they don’t.
And Smith is better, but maybe the Giants stop throwing to him so he ends up with less catches.
Master of the squeegee
Biased? Tell me what is biased.
And I never made any claims about if you pro-rated their stats out, because that’s not how things work. All I said is that for having 107 receptions, Steve Smith didn’t do a whole hell of a lot with them.
I am the people's troll :3™
Most of the routes had Smith at a stop when he made the catch. Unlike even Welker, who catches basically all his stuff on the run.
Smith usually runs a button hook between the LB and the corner, or runs a in/out route on the corner.
He just wasn’t in the situation to do it…especially once Nicks started to play and pushed Smith into the more ‘slot’ role.
Biased is just going by stats…you didn’t watch the game, so saying “he didn’t do a whole lot” is biased, cuz he did plenty considering the routes he was running.
Master of the squeegee
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 9, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
I wish they’d put Smith in a better position, cuz I think he’s got good speed and agility.
The situations they put him in to catch the ball…really, no he can’t. He’s always making a catch with a defender breathing down his neck.
Master of the squeegee
by FreeBradshaw on Mar 9, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
C’mon Free… Didn’t you sort of make a similar argument for Domenik Hixon being better than DeSean Jackson last offseason :)
That said, those stats are fine and good (and personally, I’m a huge Jason Avant fan), but Steve Smith is the much better receiver.
by JimmyK on Mar 9, 2010 6:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Tells you
It might not be a bad thing if the Eagles targeted Avant a bit more and actually draw up some plays where he was the primary option. Yeah you still need to get the ball to Jackson & Maclin deep but I would mind seeing Celek & Avant being more staple guys on 3rd down.
I dont care if he could be the #1 for the Giants,
I want him in Philly plus he’s a badass.
thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro
"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb
at 1:57 is why I like Avant so much
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcLHWB5qi38
I also can’t help but think back to the clutch 3rd down catch against the Chargers that made me believe we had a chance late in the third quarter.
"My grandma's favorite grandson" --Rone
Once again
Avant=Badass.
thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro
"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb
the catch at about :56 is why i like him
jackson and maclin prolly can make that catch but with avant i know he is going to make freaking crazy catches
is at peace with the fact that i am a DICK.... i am good at it.... it is what i do.... it defines who i am.... will i be hated?? most definitely... do i care?? hell no...
"youve got enemies? good. that means you actully stood up for something" -Eminem
Avant's by no means
a speedster, he is by no means the most talented WR to play the game, but the one thing he can do is get that god damn football into his hands and hang on for dear life and for that we love him.
thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro
"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb
by wild_eagle on Mar 10, 2010 2:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL we have Desean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin and Jason Avant.
Speedy WR + Speedy strong WR + Badass WR > the giants WR core.
thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro
"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb
His point was
Nicks > Avant, and thats true.
by Team Serbia on Mar 10, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
How is this even an argument?
Avant got outperformed by your tight end! He’d be 4th on our depth chart.
Our top 3 outperformed yours last season, and honestly Avant has never impressed me. It’s good to have good hands, but if they don’t throw it to you, then whats the point?
desean and maclin are good. In truth, Celek is your third wideout.
So i’ll do this for wild eagle….
Hakeem Nicks, Steve Smith, Mario Manningham, Ramses Barden.
Fast Strong WR with 4XL hands + Crisp route runner, baby welker + Speedy, slippery WR + untapped raw talent, and tallest receiver in the league(6’6") > the eagles WR core.
Steve Smith is “baby Welker”? Over half of Welker’s yards come from YAC, and almost none come from Steve Smith’s. All Steve Smith does is catch the ball and drop to the ground.
Yeah, your top 3 receivers outperformed ours because they were all targeted more. We actually have something called “depth” so we can choose from any number of eligible receivers.
I am the people's troll :3™
Welker is the best "slot" receiver in the game
SS is the second best. Add to that that he led the league in 3rd down receptions for a 1st down, yeah i’d say he’s a baby welker. your pointing out 1 stat that differentiates them yom, but as far as possesion wideouts go, you can’t go wrong with the guy right behind welker in recepts for the year. Plus, Smith is only in his 4th season? the upside is crazy.
And i’m not convinced you have depth. Reggie Brown, Kevin Curtis? no sir, that wasn’t depth. nicks, manningham, smith, hixon, barden is depth.
Hixon and Barden are depth? Hixon had 15 receptions. Our FULLBACK had 15 receptions. Barden had one reception. Our waterboy had more than that.
I don’t mean wide receiver depth. I mean we have options with who to throw the ball to.
Celek was targeted almost as much as DeSean was (and in fact had more receptions). They are our WR 1A and 1B.
So compare Manningham to Celek, not Maclin. Celek had 150 more yards and 3 more TDs than Manningham.
I am the people's troll :3™
And don’t even try to say Steve Smith had a better season because he had 60 more receiving yards and more receptions. DeSean Jackson had the way better season with more receiving TDs, almost as many yards on 44 less catches, 137 yards rushing, a rushing TD, and two special teams TDs.
I am the people's troll :3™
it's like comparing apples to apples(red delicious to granny smith)
the other Steve is a possesion receiver; his job isn’t to run a go route. it’s to run a button hook or out route right at the sticks to move the chains. that’s why he led the league in 3rd down conversions.
Desean’s job is to get that bitch and go! and he’s good at it. but his job isn’t to get to the sticks and stretch for the 1st. his job is to find a hole in the zone deep, or burn his man one on one.
both are prolific at there jobs. there’s arguments to be made either way, and we both could use stats to make points. but it’s comparing 2 different apples.
you're actually making my point
To have to compare our wide receiver to your tight end proves to me that Jason Avant would be WAY down on our depth chart, not even close to a number one option.
Now if your argument is total weapons for the QB, that’s a different argument altogether, but i still contend the Giants have more there as well. Look at total number of players who caught passes for us compared to you guys. 14 different giants to 9 different eagles. I’m not even saying that we have 14 legitimate weapons, just as i’m sure you don’t think you have 9 legitimate weapons. but in sheer numbers, and volume, we actually have more depth, more people that the defense has to account for, than you guys.
I know the Barden argument is weak right now. I guess in NY we have high hopes for him only because of what potential we’ve seen in the guy in college, training camp, and preseason. It’s kind of how some of you guys see buckley as – untapped potential. Now if you bring Buck up in an argument, we’d laugh at you too. but all i can say is watch out for the guy, maybe he’s not depth yet, but IMO he will be…
?
Jason Avant wouldn’t have dropped a lot of the balls Manningham did … just sayin.
They call me The Professor.
I said Jason Avant has good hands
other than that, he doesn’t break games like i think our guys do. his output showed as much.
Welker is the best "slot" receiver in the game
SS is the second best. Add to that that he led the league in 3rd down receptions for a 1st down, yeah i’d say he’s a baby welker. your pointing out 1 stat that differentiates them yom, but as far as possesion wideouts go, you can’t go wrong with the guy right behind welker in recepts for the year. Plus, Smith is only in his 4th season? the upside is crazy.
And i’m not convinced you have depth. Reggie Brown, Kevin Curtis? no sir, that wasn’t depth. nicks, manningham, smith, hixon, barden is depth.
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