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Payton, Reid, and unexpected onside kicks

Saw this on NYTimes and thought it was a great short article on how Payton's 'gambles' were actually pretty savvy and that his decision to go for the TD on 4th down was actually a bit more mathematically justified by the odds than by the odd-sides kick:

4th and goal

"With a little less than two minutes to go in the half and a fourth-and-goal on the 1 and the Saints trailing, 10-3, the Win Probability analysis agrees with the go-for-it call. A field goal gives the Saints a 0.32 Win Probability. A touchdown ties the score and gives the Saints a 0.48 Win Probability. A failed attempt gives the Colts a first down at their 1 with 1 minute 55 seconds to play in the half and drops the Saints’ Win Probability to 0.26. It was certainly a high-stakes play. Fourth-and-goal from the 1 plays are converted 68 percent of the time. This makes the overall decision to go for it worth a 0.41 Win Probability:

0.68 * 0.48 + (1-0.68) * 0.26 = 0.41 WP

Going for the touchdown was the better call, 0.41 versus 0.32 Win Probability."

Onside kick

"Onside kicks are more successful when they are not expected. Since 2000, slightly more than 60 percent of unexpected onside kicks have been recovered by the kicking team.

In this case, the Saints were behind by 4. A deep kick would typically give the Colts a first-and-10 near their own 30, translating to a 0.32 Win Probability for the Saints. A failed onside kick gives the Colts a first down at the Saints’ 40 or so, worth a 0.26 Win Probability to the Saints. A successful recovery gives the Saints possession at their own 40, giving them a 0.39 Win Probability. In total, the onside attempt is worth a 0.34 Win Probability:

0.60 * 0.39 + (1-0.60) * 0.27 = 0.34 WP

The onside attempt was a good gamble according to the numbers, but not by much — 0.34 versus 0.32 Win Probability."

Eagles and unexpected onside kicks

One of the things I was surprised to see was that just about 60% of unexpected onside kicks have succeeded over the past 10 years.  Reid tried this very same thing in Philly this year against the Skins this year to start the game and took a huge amount of crap on BGN and Philly in general (big surprise).   Went back and looked quickly and Reid has only tried this 3 other times during his tenure in Philly.

2000 vs. Dallas - Eagles open the season with an unexpected onside kick vs. Dallas on the kickoff.  Eagles recover, score a TD, and go on to romp the Boys 41-14.

2003 vs. Dallas - Eagles try a similar trick against Dallas but later in the game.  It backfires badly as Dallas recovers the ball and scores a pivotal TD.  Boys win 23-21.

2007 vs NE - Eagles executed a successful surprise onside kick early in the 2nd qtr.  They didn't score on the drive though and lost the game 31-28. (Updated: Thanks Imp for the heads up)

So basically, Reid has coached the Eagles in 194 games (including 18 postseason games) and used the unexpected onside kick 4 times (2 successful/2 unsuccessful).  As rare as seeing some real emotion from Reid during a post-game Q&A.

It will be interesting to see if the unexpected onside kick gets used a bit more next year in the NFL (it is like the white tiger of the NFL and only get used a handful of times during the entire season) but I can't imagine that Reid will that apt to try using it again next year.

Is there anything else you would like to see Reid do to take more risks?

Poll
Do you think the Eagles will try an unexpected onside kick again next year?
Yes
32 votes
No
17 votes

49 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 30 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Flippant comment

This is the kind of BS comment that I was expecting to get. One of the larger criticisms of Reid the past few years is that he has grown ‘too predictable’ and isn’t willing to take chances (4th downs, etc).

by MG77 on Feb 9, 2010 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

everyone is entitled to their opinions

where you like it or not suck it

eff you we winning anyway
A.I. IS BACKKKKKKK

by eagleswin on Feb 9, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure they do

I just appreciate when somebody takes the time to put something together with some basis premise/points with some insights or when you they pass on a good link/article.

You pass on some good articles/links periodically. Appreciate that.

by MG77 on Feb 10, 2010 1:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Lol

It was a joke, MG.

I’d like him to go for it more on 4th down. We have a big guy in Weaver, and one of the more bigger O-line in the league. Why not?

by LegendKnight22 on Feb 10, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Who cares about unexpected onside kicks?

I think unless you absolutely need it late in the game its pretty much unsportsmanlike.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 9, 2010 9:44 PM EST reply actions  

Unsportsmanlike?

I don’t think so. Its certainly risky, but that’s like saying going for the 2 PT conversion when you’re down 9 or up 5 is unsportsmanlike. Its not being a poor sport, its taking a strategic risk.

by DeSean10 on Feb 9, 2010 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I know..

its not written anywhere.. Im just saying that its kinda neutrally understood that that shit is kinda cheap.. Like what the saints did.

Im just saying that sure it was a good call but I didnt think it was (1) fair and (2) necessary… Gotta love Baskett though.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 9, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Say what?

Where have you ever heard that this is a ‘cheap’ move? I didn’t hear a single announcer say that during the broadcast or after it.

by MG77 on Feb 9, 2010 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

nah, Im saying its more frowned upon...

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 10, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

really?!?! frowned upon

everything i read about payton calling it too start second half has said it was a gutsy call that paid off. and people are praising him for have the balls to do it. maybe i suck at reading in between the lines……..maybe i have to read it backwards to hear the frowned upon message

is at peace with the fact that i am a DICK.... i am good at it.... it is what i do.... it defines who i am.... will i be hated?? most definitely... do i care?? hell no...

by Udalango on Feb 10, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Haha. Cheap. Ok.

It’s a clever coaching decision, not unsportsmanlike. So a coach going balls-to-the-wall to win the Super Bowl is cheap? If that’s your opinion what will you do if the Eagles win a Super Bowl thanks in part to a cheap move like this?

I suppose a fake field goal is cheap as well? Play action pass is really unsportsmanlike if you think about it. Reverses? Laterals? Flea-flickers? All cheap shit. Wildcat? Cheap. Pump-fake? Unsportsmanlike. Screen passes?! Cheap, cheap, cheap. If you wanna be a real champion you should only pass when you show it (draw plays are such bitch moves), run when you show it and kick on fourth down. Otherwise, nope. Cheap and unsporstmanlike.

by NOLACuse on Feb 10, 2010 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

"thats not fair Djax is faster then our dbs!!!!!"

damnit we are so fucking cheap

is at peace with the fact that i am a DICK.... i am good at it.... it is what i do.... it defines who i am.... will i be hated?? most definitely... do i care?? hell no...

by Udalango on Feb 10, 2010 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

no, im saying kicking an unexpected onsides kick is kinda

uncourteous… But hell if it won the eagles a SB i’d be all over it so I guess I give you guys the win on this one.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 10, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

If the rules allow it, it’s fair. It’s no more cheap than a fake punt or fake field goal or jumping out of bounds to stop the clock.

by Rabbit T on Feb 10, 2010 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I thought Reid also call for an unexpected onside kick against the Patriots in 2007?

RIP Jim Johnson, best ever.
Kurt Warner: HOF Class of 2015

by Imp on Feb 9, 2010 10:01 PM EST reply actions  

Indeed

Good catch. I will edit the post with the update info.

by MG77 on Feb 9, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

the thing is

is payton called that play, they didn’t recover, and they lost…he would be criticized until hell freezes over

"If I can get you to think twice, I'm in your head."

-Brian Dawkins

by immynimmy on Feb 9, 2010 11:02 PM EST reply actions  

Exactly

I don’t think Payton’s a genius for calling that onside kick. He’s a good coach, sure, and he proved he’s got some balls, but it’s hardly a “genius” move. If Mr. Wilkinson doesn’t flub the catch, the Colts are going to come away with at least 3 points. High risk, high reward.

by zfg on Feb 10, 2010 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

That's just the way it works isn't it?

Belichick was criticized for his fourth and 2 call versus the Colts, but if they convert, he’s a genius. Payton knew the odds were in his favor they’d recover, so it wasn’t a terrible decision. I think it was good coaching in the sense that he consistently proved throughout the game he was going to do everything he could to win. You say high risk, high reward, but in truth it was medium risk, high reward. 60% chance of positive outcome isn’t high risk, but when the play is unconventional everyone calls it high risk.

by NOLACuse on Feb 10, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

it was a lil crazy...

not in the sense that he did it, but he told his team they were gonna be kicking an onside kick before the game, and practiced it all week…it wasn’t done on a whim…

"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."

by greenbean#twoOH on Feb 10, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

No, it wasn't on a whim, you're right.

I don’t know if others have mentioned it, but it was a result of film study. I remember Brees mentioning afterward that in watching film they recognized that the Colts tend to cheat the kickoff, or start retreating into blocking positions before the kick takes place. Payton knew that an onside recovery was more likely as a result. Just in the same way that Porter used film study to recognize which route Wayne was about to run on his pick 6. They used film study to outcoach the Colts and took some calculated risks. Risks to be sure, but calculated ones that make sense when you really think about them and why they did them.

by NOLACuse on Feb 10, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly....

thats what i mean….well put, they were calculated risks from rigorous planning and studying.

"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."

by greenbean#twoOH on Feb 10, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!

by Joe_D on Feb 10, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Andy and Co do a lot of film work

If he sees the return team leaving early in a game he expects to be competitive… I’d expect him to have the play sitting there to be used.

by Smallbugger on Feb 9, 2010 11:15 PM EST reply actions  

I think you have to say

The win probability for kicking it deep decreases when you’re staring at Peyton Manning.

That, I think really factored into Payton’s thinking. A risk-neutral would be indifferent normally, but in this case I really think the difference in WP between kicking it deep and onsiding it was larger because of the Colts offense

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Feb 10, 2010 1:13 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed on all fronts

Even if the Colts recover, for them to score you are talking maybe 4 minutes off the clock, 5 plays at that distance. You kick deep they return to the 20, that’s how you get those 12 play, 10 minute drives. excellent call by Payton.

" AK 47! When you absolutely, positively have to kill every muthafucka in the room! Except no substitute." Samuel L Jackson- Jackie Brown

"You know what you should do United Nations? You should sanction me. Sanctiom me with your army! Oh, wait a minute! You ain't got an army! Guess that means you need to shut the fuck up! That's what I would do if I didn't have an army. I would shut the fuck up! Shut...The...Fuck...Up!!!" Black Bush

by Talon Talent on Feb 11, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

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