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Why it is Time for McNabb to Move On

 

If You Can’t Step Up….You Have To Step Aside

 

Why it is Time for McNabb to Move On

 

 

Seven times Donovan McNabb has played the biggest game of the Eagles postseason. Seven times he has lost. 

 

If the goal of an NFL season is to win the Super Bowl, a preponderance of evidence clearly illustrates fairly conclusively that this will not happen with Donovan McNabb as the Philadelphia Eagles Quarterback. Therefore, it is time to move on.

 

Andy Reid certainly deserves a large portion of the blame and most would also like to see Andy go however it is clear the decision has been made to continue with Andy. Therefore, the choice is now simple. Does McNabb stay or go? The clear answer - - - time to move on.

 

During the prime of his career, McNabb has had seven opportunities to win the final meaningful game of the Eagles season and he has failed every time. Many of these games he was favored to win against a supposedly weaker opponent .This was not solely his fault, but it happened on his watch, with him as the undisputed offensive leader.

 

There is no data that exists to show this will change, especially now that his physical skills are most likely on the decline.

 

Not once in those seven games has McNabb had a statistically outstanding game. In fact, his averages in those games are well below his overall career averages.

 

In other words, not only did he never once step up and put the team on his back as stars and leaders are expected to do, he did the opposite; in each of those seven tries he has been a contributing factor to the loss by not playing up to at least his normal quality of play.

 

The statistical evidence

 

McNaab has thrown a pick in all seven games, he has never had more TD’s than INT’s in any of those games, he never topped a 60% completion percentage, and his average passer rating in those seven games is 66.7%. (That would put him in the bottom 5 of 32 NFL Quarterbacks for the 2009 NFL season)

 

In five of the seven games he had less than 245 yards passing. He has also averaged a paltry 54.5% completion percentage in those games. (Only 4 of 32 NFL Quarterbacks had a worse completion percentage for the 2009 season).

 

Buried in that avalanche of damning statistical evidence is the fact that McNabb has only led his team to an average of 15 points per game in those seven games….fifteen points per game!

 

It is simple math, if you average fifteen points per game in the NFL playoffs you most likely will never win. Only one NFL team has won a playoff game scoring less than 15 points in the past 10 years…that was when the Eagles lost to the Panthers 14 – 3.

 

The Eagles have averaged 24 points per game in the regular season over the past eight years. In only one of the seven games has McNabb led his team over that mark - that was last year when they scored 25 points in the loss to the Cardinals.

 

The simple fact is that Donovan McNabb is paid to win the biggest postseason game of the year. He has had seven opportunities to do so, and each and every time he has not only been unequal to the task, he has been unable too surpass his normal regular season output. There is no evidence to believe that this can change now that he is 33 years old and has several injuries under his belt.

 

 

The Facts; The Seven Biggest Games of McNabb’s Playoff Career

 

Date

Opponent

Score

Completions

Attempts

Comp %

TD's

Int

Yards

Passer Rating

1/7/2001

Giants

20 - 10

20

41

0.487804878

1

1

181

59.1

1/27/2002

Cardinals

29 - 24

18

30

0.6

1

1

171

73.1

1/19/2003

Bucs

27 - 10

26

49

0.530612245

0

1

243

58.5

1/18/2004

Panthers

14 - 3

10

22

0.454545455

0

3

100

19.3

2/6/2005

Patriots

24 - 21

30

51

0.588235294

3

3

357

75.4

1/18/2009

Cardinals

32 - 25

28

47

0.595744681

3

1

375

97.4

1/9/2010

Cowboys

34 - 14

19

37

0.513513514

1

1

230

68.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Average Points

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Totals

 

15.28571429

151

277

0.545126354

9

11

1657

66.7

Averages

 

15.28571429

21.57143

39.57143

0.545126354

1.2857

1.57143

236.714

66.7

 

 

Enough with supporting statistics. Although they speak for themselves and paint a very solid picture over a more than reasonable sampling of data, let’s look at the McNabb defenders.

 

Response to – "The McNabb Defense"

 

The most common excuse is that it is not all McNabb’s fault. We will stipulate that as the truth. During these games many others had significant roles in the Birds defeat, ranging from GM to coach’s to other players who did not execute. The Eagles would do well to try and fix those problems as well, however, the difference is that McNabb is the most important player, the leader, the one on the field constant during that period – and - the one who had stepped up could have had the most significant impact on the games.

 

Typically the McNabb apologist’s excuses come in a few flavors; a) the defense played poorly and cost them the game, b) McNabb did not have any receivers / weapons to help him, c) the run / pass mix (or Andy Reid game plan) was poor.

 

Let’s examine those excuses:

 

  1. The defense played poorly – averaging 15 points per game, and only once in seven times scoring more than your average season point total - this does not carry weight. Yes, the defense played poorly at times and contributed to the losses, but the argument is over when you only score 15 points per game. If you have seven tries to produce an above average season point total and only do that once, the defense is not the largest problem.

 

  1. No receivers / weapons – again, scoring only an average of 15 points, or 9+ points below your regular season average, is not a valid excuse in and of itself. Yes, the playmakers were both few and weak at times however they were good enough to help McNabb achieve much higher point totals as well as passer rating, passing percentage, and TD to INT ratio during the regular season. Not a valid excuse.

 

  1. Poor game plan / play calling – This may be the most compelling argument AGAINST McNabb. If you are a star, paid like a star, a leader, and paid like a leader, you find a way. Maybe not every time, but you find a way to win at least once or twice in those seven tries. You do not fail every time. Someone in McNabb’s position has options to overcome this game plan / play calling issue, the two most obvious are:

 

  1.  
    1. Use your clout, experience and expertise – Hey, Andy, I know we have this game plan that we worked on all week but we have tried it for half the game and it ain’t working. We need to do something different. I am on the field and have the rhythm and pulse of this game - I have some ideas…I see what their D is trying to do, I see who is tired or gimpy, I see who they are trying to hide and not let us exploit, I see some holes that we need to probe, I see who is hot on our team, I see in their eyes who wants the ball and deserves it, we need to get it to them, I see a matchup we can exploit, I see some plays we can use to set up some of their defenders for later in the game….why don’t we try these other plays? You have to trust me Andy, I am now 0 – 3 (0- 4, 0 - 5, 0 - 6) in these games, have several years in this system under my belt and you can count on me.

 

                                                               i.      There are two possibilities in this scenario (neither good)  - Either he never tried that tactic and therefore is not a leader and is afraid to take charge, or, he did try it and it did not work, meaning he is not a leader and although unafraid, is not a field general you can count on. Either way it illustrates that he does not have the football leadership intangibles that separate the elite QB’s from the rest.

 

  1.  
    1. Selectively take over the play calling and ask for forgiveness later – Audibles! If something is not working and Andy won’t listen, and you have been down this path before and see the same outcome on the horizon, look for opportunities to change the play to something you feel has a better chance.

 

                                                               i.      Same possibilities as above, only two possible outcomes – He did not do it, which is bad, or, he did it and his plays did not work, which is bad. Either way, not a valid excuse.

 

Why we can’t expect a better outcome in future years

 

Simple - he has been here 11 years and he is not improving physically or fundamentally.

 

 

  1. Better Physically? – This is not a reasonable expectation by any means. Although he is most likely still in great physical shape, and deserves kudos for his offseason workout regimen and physical dedication to the sport, at 33 the odds and history say no. In addition, even in peak condition he has shown that he gets hurt frequently. Alongside these facts, you have the reduced expectation that he will either last a full season, or, be at a physical peak when the biggest game of the year rolls around.

 

  1. Better Fundamentally? – Can we name something tangible that he does better now than 5 years ago? Accuracy? Touch passes? Pump fakes? Play action fakes? Clock management? Looking off a receiver? Two minute drill? Reading through progressions? Hitting receivers in stride? Without being in the film room, on the sideline or in the huddle it is hard to say if he is getting better at reading defenses so we should give him the benefit of the doubt there. As for the rest of the list, it seems there is a preponderance of evidence to suggest he has not improved over the past five years in any of those areas, therefore, there is little reason to expect the coming years will show improvement in those areas.

 

The Intangibles

So, now that we have laid out the case in the statistical as well as leadership, physical and fundamental phases, we have the touchy feely "intagibles" issue to deal with.

 

Certainly these touchy feely issues do not explain the lack of big game wins, and are not a reason to see McNabb move on in and of themselves, these issues can only help to explain two things; Why we can’t expect a better outcome in future years, and, why the national press has a different view of McNabb than the frustrated Philadelphia fans who watch him every week.

 

Allow me to explain from a Philadelphia Eagles fans perspective.

 

The playoff excitement builds for an entire week. You plan where you will watch the game and who you will watch it with. You discuss the game and all possible strategies, permutations and outcomes for the entire week. You do this with friends, family and strangers. You go back through history to find similar games to get a feel for what to expect. All you are begging for is another win so you get another game, until eventually you get your elusive Super Bowl and the parade and bragging rights that go with it. You know your team is one of the very few that has never won a Super Bowl, but you always think this year is different, this is our year. We have been here for 50 years waiting for this Super Bowl, longer than all of the players and some of the coaches have been alive. We will be here long after these players have gone, still waiting for our chance, hoping this is the year, hoping that these players play their best game of the year and bring it home.

 

Then - the biggest playoff game of the year arrives. You know the history and stats say McNabb and the Eagles won’t perform to expectations, but you suspend that history and root for them with all of your heart.

 

The game starts, on the fourth play of the game the Eagles call a timeout for some unexplained reason. Even though the first 15 plays are scripted, something invariably goes wrong and they are forced to call a timeout. No problem, you boo and call them rat bastiges but you are used to it, they do it all the time. At this point you know it is only 50/50 that they will have a timeout left for the invariable poorly executed 2 minute drill, but we have overcome this before so we hope.

 

In the next series, after a couple of mystical play calls, it is 3rd and five. Everyone knows what will happen, and surely it does, a 3 yard buttonhook to a flat footed statutory, stationary receiver with a defender draped on him. You get upset, but again, you are used to it, you have seen this for years. You are not certain if this was the play call or the checkdown that McNabb took too quickly, but you know you have an explosive offense so you slowly forget it. We have hope, we have overcome this before.

 

Next series we have a fleet receiver wide open on a 7 yard crossing route with plenty of green pasture in front. Anyone who is a true Eagles fan hopes the receiver has his catching feet buckled on because sure enough, the worm burner barely clears the shoe tops. Oh well, simply another incompletion, we are used to this by now. We budget for 2 – 3 of those per game. We can easily overcome again.

 

By this time we are eagerly awaiting our chance at the halftime two minute drill. A close game, and although we are trailing by a few, if we score here, we can have the momentum in the second half. Fortunately, by some miracle, we actually have one timeout left. Starting from our own 39 we only need 35 yards to get to field goal range. Plenty of time. McNabb hits a back over the middle for a three yard gain. If he would have hit him in stride instead of on his back shoulder, it may have been 15 – 20 yards, or he may have gotten out of bounds, no worry though, plenty of time. As McNabb and Reid casually discuss the next play through helmet talk and hand signals, the rest of the team casually saunters towards the line, or the general proximity of the line. Good news, we still have 5 seconds on the play clock for McNabb to read the defense, decide if this is the right play and get the snap off, no problem, we can do this in our sleep. Although we are pretty certain that our screaming from the stands, bar or living room won’t speed up their play, we try anyway.

 

Soon after, its third and ten on the opponent 41 with 46 seconds and a timeout left. A football eternity, plenty of time… plenty of time. McNabb drops back and although the football clock in everyone’s head is ticking, McNabb is not finding an open receiver (even though replays clearly show he had one), and he does not seem to want to use his legs to get out of trouble or out of bounds. As he patiently waits and waits, you are hoping he at least throws it away, but alas, he is shocked to find that after 5 - 6 seconds in the pocket, a defender has somehow managed to break free and sack him. No problem, there was a penalty on the play, replay the down. Whew…luckily, just enough time for one more interception.

 

Thankfully we get to go to the locker room and regroup. Some novice Eagle fans may be ticked off or curious why McNabb was smiling as he walked off the field after the pick, but we faithful are used to it, he likes to smile after picks or poorly thrown balls to wide open receivers. Any true Birds fan knows that, not too happy about it, and can’t understand it, but after 11 years you are somewhat used to it. That’s OK, we will all be miserable for him.

 

Can’t wait to see what adjustments the Birds made at halftime. Looks like the two starting tackles and middle linebacker for the other team are hurt, possibly crippled, can’t tell for sure but one of the tackles may be missing an arm, certainly a weak spot to be surgically exploited by our running game.

 

As we start the second half with 14 consecutive passes, almost half of which we complete, we seem to be gathering steam. Down by an insurmountable 5 points we obviously have to abandon the run. Common sense dictates this strategy.

 

We have now marched 56 yards and chewed almost two full minutes off the clock. (The defense can thank us for the rest later). Time for the field goal to get us within 2.

 

The well rested defense holds. All is good. 

 

McNabb back at the helm hits a long pass for 38 yards. On the move again, looking good. Although our tight end had a surreal 1st half where seemingly no one could cover him, McNabb and Reid do the prudent thing and use him as a decoy. Don’t expect him to see the ball the rest of the game….too obvious. Instead, we try and get it to our #5 receiver, our #3 tight end, and our #3 running back, all to no avail. Again, not certain if they were the intended targets, checkdowns, or simply keeping the other team off guard by not using our top players. No matter, we are within striking distance and feeling good….until that fumble by McNabb. I guess some saw it coming when he had his back to the rush for over 5 seconds, but he is a playmaker and that is what happens, the price you pay. No problem, we have seen this plenty of times and have overcome it.

 

Meanwhile, the camera cuts to McNabb on the sideline, sitting by himself, looking kind of hip and laid back, kinda how casual looks when it is non-chalant. Some may wonder why when the camera cuts to other QB’s on the sidelines they are looking over pictures of the defense with coaches, or pumping up the offense, or talking strategy with someone. This ability to sit or stand casually at a moments notice, no matter the situation, separates McNabb from the other QB’s. It seems to work for him so we brush it aside. It does seem like he has a slight pout in this shot, must just be the camera angle. No worries, the coaches in the booth and Andy will work on figuring out how to get those elusive winning points. McNabb is better just sitting there on the sideline, silently contemplating…or something…

 

Now we are down to crunch time. The Birds have the ball with a chance to win it. They seem to be meandering towards the line of scrimmage with renewed purpose. They may even have time to call an audible if needed….oops, there goes another timeout. If only we had not wasted one earlier when the play clock was winding down at the beginning of the 3rd quarter on 1st down and five (after a penalty) on our own 49. Some would say we should have taken the 5 yard penalty, instead of burning the timeout, but we know better. We are used to it, we will overcome.

 

No problem, we still have one timeout left and plenty of time. Now is when we call the draw up the middle and catch them off guard. It does, and we get 9. After some very meaningful milling about, the Birds get back to the line in time to run a perfectly executed play action pass down the middle for another 14 yards. Maybe not perfectly executed, I guess the pass would have been completed for that to be true. It seems that some of these other teams don’t go for the play action fake when; you are in an obvious passing situation, you have only run the ball 11 times in 57 plays, and the QB fakes the handoff in the "general vicinity" of where he "thought"  the back might be.

 

Ohhmm. All is good. We have been here before and we can overcome. All of our piercing pleas and creative use of our f-bomb / body part mash-ups, no matter how inspired and practiced, may not be helping directly, but we are certain they are needed.

 

Down to a final couple of plays. A TD is all that is needed, 11 simple yards to traverse, two downs and 13 seconds to do it in. Better call the final timeout now and get the play right rather than save it. As we all know the best play call when you need 11 yards is a 5 yard crossing route; we know if we hit a random receiver 6 yards from the end zone, he has a good chance to take it to the house from there. How tough is 6 yards? The game is on the line so McNabb knows that the 5 yards this pass needs to travel had better come out hot, send it with steam right at the numbers. Can’t risk laying it in there in front of the receiver giving him time to turn upfield, this pass needs to leave an imprint between the numbers. It’s the receiver’s job to catch the ball and figure a way to score; it is McNabb’s job to burn it in there at max velocity. But just to be sure, we have a backup plan and we imaginatively send all of our receivers out at no more than 10 yards depth, this way, any one of them can take it that final few yards. If not, at least we have a timeou….oops. Well at least we completed the pass and McNabb is smiling. I know time ran out and we lost but we got real close. We’ll get ‘em next year, you watch, things will be different. (Lather, Rinse, Repeat...)

 

While we fans are looking for wrist slitting instruments and random objects to kick, we notice the Eagles, led by McNabb, enjoying a lighthearted chuckle or two with the opponent, probably making dinner reservations or comparing offseason plans. Our week is shot, another dagger in the heart, already calloused with the scars from the past 50 years, longer than McNabb has been alive, but at least he is having fun…he’s got that goin’ for him.

 

Although we know better, we stick around for the post game news conference. After Andy comes on to say he needs to do a better job, coach them up better, and put them in better position to win, McNabb takes the podium.

 

He sounds in fine monotone. Although he says he is the leader and takes full responsibility, he also manages to work in the fact that the defense did not give him the ball back with enough time on the clock, the team is young and prone to making youthful mistakes, and all he does is execute the plays that the coaches call. No problem, we will get them next year.

 

 

Conclusion

 

It is not just about the stats or the losses, it is nice to know that they work as hard at their job as we do, care as much about the outcome as we do, and feel the pain we do when we lose. Even if they don’t, at least act like you do. At least give us the illusion that you are one of us. That is all we ask. Work hard, get dirty, show you care, learn from your mistakes, enjoy the game as much as we do and feel as much or more pain after a loss as we do. Is that too much to ask?

 

Empirical evidence shows that when given chances in the prime of his career, sometimes against inferior opponents, McNabb has not been able to find a way to win and has not played well. Not only has he lost, but he has done so in the exact same fashion each time. 11 years of watching not just the losses, but the poor clock management, lack of urgency, easy outward acceptance of defeats and poor execution, blaming others, sidleline sulking, inability to improve basic fundamental have all led to the same conclusion. Time to move on.

 

With his talent he may win a Super Bowl for another team. He has the talent, and if he keeps up this level of regular season play for a few more years he may make the Hall of Fame. As an off the field human there seem to be none better in recent Philadelphia history. Unlike some of his selfish, petulant, substance abusing brethren in other towns and other sports, he is a pleasure to watch off the field, a giving and caring member of the community.

 

That can make you a role model, but unfortunately it does not buy you another chance to lead The Birds. We may never win without him, or find someone with his talent and on field flair, but we have seen enough to know that we won’t win a Super Bowl with him. The parade is still the goal and he can’t take us there.

 

Comment 218 comments  |  8 recs  | 

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One hell of a first post.

I couldn’t have said that better myself.

by Moug on Feb 15, 2010 1:13 PM EST reply actions  

Can anyone name me...

A good offensive weapon besides Westy in 01’,02’,03’,04’ ? Good as in top 15 in any offensive category? Top 20 even?

If not lets throw those 4 years and all of those games that are negative out of the window. And lets put double the emphasis on his wins in big games in those years.

I have no excuses for him in the last two years. We upset the Gmen in the Medowlands then to be upset by the Cards. And then we got smacked by Dallas 3x last year. The first game being more like a slap.

I am ready for Kolb to grow with these young guys. I am hoping we move McNabb for a late 1 and a 4. Or a 2, a 3, a 5 and a 2 next year. I would love to see the Birds grab a bunch of defensive talent. this and next year. So Kolb can learn with great weapons and the confidence that his “D” has his back. BUT McNabb is no slouch and “IF” he stays I will not be upset. As long as if it is only for ONE MORE YEAR.

by Dmyth13 on Feb 15, 2010 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Well said

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Feb 16, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

One More thing...

You have stated McNabbs stats for the games he lost that were big. What about the PO games he has won? Those stats should count.

by Dmyth13 on Feb 17, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

CAN WE STOP

Having these McKolb posts?
When someone gets the boot we can talk, celebrate, blah blah blah, these post are so redundant.

by Young Eagle on Feb 15, 2010 1:22 PM EST via mobile reply actions   2 recs

I agree

But if they were all as well done as this they might not be so redundant!

by JasonB on Feb 15, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure

If all we were interested in was style then this post would be superb. When you look at the substance of his argument he’s saying 2 + 2 = 5.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 15, 2010 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

yep

this post is statistical trash

by Alon on Feb 15, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

(Good first post though)

by Young Eagle on Feb 15, 2010 1:33 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

i didn't read this whole thing

so if what i’m about to type was addressed, my bad for the laziness.
BUT….
shaq only won cuz he had kobe, and kobe only won cuz he had shaq. shaq couldn’t win again till he joined wade. kobe couldn’t win again until he got pau. mcnabb has been alone for many years. when he DID have TO, he lost by 3 to spygate. 4 of those 7 “big” losses came against some of the best defenses in the last decade. the coaching for mcnabb’s offense has been suspect on many occasions. RELAX!!!! stat nerds!!! don’t be so hard on the guy. if he goes, then fine, go kevin kolb!! if he stays, support him!!! appreciate what you have! it’s ridiculous.

by Bleediots on Feb 15, 2010 1:47 PM EST reply actions  

Are you saying you expect him to improve because of better weapons?

That is, having DeSean, Celek, Maclin plus Shady and Weaver should make him perform better?
It would be just as easy to say that without this quality of targets, the team would be in a holy mess and even more people would be screaming for personnel changes.
Not criticizing you but I do want to know whether that is what you think.

by Rabbit T on Feb 15, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, sort of

i think he should have done better than he did this past season. absolutely. with all those guys you just named, for sure. and i can understand how those who don’t appreciate mcnabb would indeed be screaming for personnel changes. but then again, there are many other factors. our coaching staff’s inability to prepare for the Dallas games, their inability to adjust at halftime. that’s not all on mcnabb. lack of a running game, not all on mcnabb. he isn’t manning, marino, or montana, yes. but how many people are?
can we at least agree that you cannot entirely base performances, you cannot evaluate worth based on stats alone. stats are sometimes not even half the story. like the oakland game. stats don’t tell that dunlap was getting lit up with the rest of the O-line, that mcnabb had no time at all, that zach miller “broke” 15 tackles on his way to a 80 yd touchdown.

by Bleediots on Feb 15, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Two points

First I agree that you can’t evaluate only based on stats. There are too many things that can’t be measured or shouldn’t try to be, and others that are measured in ways that don’t really mean anything (like passer rating). The problem is that if you didn’t watch all the games the whole way, or don’t remember something, or have an unclear impression, stats are what you often end up falling back on.
About personnel changes, I didn’t mean quarterback changes necessarily, in fact I was thinking more of upgrades at other positions.

by Rabbit T on Feb 15, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

meh

good point about the stats, i guess. no upgrades at other positions on offense, except OL.

by Bleediots on Feb 15, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

you can evaluate almost everything based on stats

they just have to be the right stats, and used carefully and appropriately, without jumping to massive conclusions just like with old-fashioned scouting

by Alon on Feb 15, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

btw

i was a huge opponent of keeping mcnabb. but the more i read, discussed, listened, the more i got into this group of fans, i’ve decided mcnabb is the way to go. so that shows that i’m not totally against kolb. it’s like if you have to choose between 2 women to bang, and you know for sure that one of em is great in the sack, but you don’t know about the other, just what you see on the dancefloor and what you’ve heard about from back in college, over 4 yrs ago…

by Bleediots on Feb 15, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

hes fucking 35

how much better is he going to get? He sucks at this point in his career

E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!

by Joe_D on Feb 16, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

He has proved he's a choke artist...

we make fun of Romo for the same thing yet we defend McNabb when its said about him.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 16, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

actually, he is 33...

He will be 34 next year, but you hate the guy, so I don’t expect you would know how old he is. later.

by PhilsForever on Feb 16, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Once again

why do you rip on Romo for choking away games yet you praise McNabb who’s choked away far more games than Romo???

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 16, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

please don't insult mcnabb...

by comparing him to romo. the comparison is not justified, not enough of a sample for romo.

by PhilsForever on Feb 16, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Huh???

Romo’s choked like 3 big games in his career, Vikings, the 44-6 game and the playoff game against Seattle..

McNabb however has Choked the SB away, all but one NFC championship game, this year’s Cowboys games, Raiders game would be another choking… I’d say McNabb’s choked away more games over the past 5-6 years than Romo has.

Not insulting McNabb just bring up a valid arguement.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 16, 2010 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

so you’ve watched every cowboys game since 2003?
how many championship games has romo been too?
the raiders game was a big game?

it sounds like you’re just listing the eagles’ most memorable losses and pinning them on mcnabb.

by awd777 on Feb 16, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Not every one but most of there big games have been on TV...

and no, the raiders game wasnt a big game but it was a prime example of how McNabb cannot get it done.

Some of the eagles most memorable losses have been the big games that McNabb chokes away.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 17, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

some, but not all...

keep in mind, many of those losses are results of reid abondoning the run and hoping that mcnabb can perform a miracle. the blame can be spread throughout many different people. mcnabb just gets the most heat because he’s the quarterback.

by awd777 on Feb 17, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

And Romo doesnt get the Heat in dallas???

every arguement your making really goes both ways.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 17, 2010 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

not really, because you don't understand the point...

i’m not talking about “heat,” i’m talking about “choking”

by awd777 on Feb 20, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

im talking about getting Heat for choking.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 21, 2010 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

If you're down by 14+

You have to abandon the run. Plus we run more then enough. Almost all the playoffs teams passed more than us.

by Team Serbia on Feb 18, 2010 8:53 AM EST up reply actions  

mcnabb's first 3 playoff runs vs. romo's first 3 playoff runs...

mcnabb: 1-1, 2-1, 1-1
romo: 0-1, 0-1, 1-1

mcnabb’s total playoff record: 9-7
romo’s total playoff rocord: 1-3

there’s no comparison… and the fact that you’re even comparing these two and their playoff “choking” problem is rediculous… not to mention, mcnabb’s first three playoff runs involved garbage for wide recevers; whereas romo had t.o., austin, witten, and roy williams.

we get it, you hate mcnabb.

by awd777 on Feb 16, 2010 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah but the difference between Favre and McNabb

is that Favre’s accurate.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 16, 2010 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah man

That pick at the end of the Saints’ game….man was that a great play

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Feb 16, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Favre has a pretty good team that he was put on as well…

by justyn725 on Feb 16, 2010 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Wild

You asked why we give Romo shit while defending McNabb. well that’s easy.
CAUSE ROMO IS THE QB OF THE FUCKING DALLAS COWWHORES!!!!!!!!! See, McNabb is our QB so we defend our QB. But Romo plays for the taint of the NFL, so he gets blasted. That’s just being a fan.
It’s sorta like when talking to a chick you tell her “guys who do these things are bad” but if it’s your boy doing them, you should, have his back. If not, if you continously sell out your people, then how can you be considered loyal?

" AK 47! When you absolutely, positively have to kill every muthafucka in the room! Except no substitute." Samuel L Jackson- Jackie Brown

"You know what you should do United Nations? You should sanction me. Sanctiom me with your army! Oh, wait a minute! You ain't got an army! Guess that means you need to shut the fuck up! That's what I would do if I didn't have an army. I would shut the fuck up! Shut...The...Fuck...Up!!!" Black Bush

by Talon Talent on Feb 17, 2010 1:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Good point but Im saying to put

teams aside and look at the two players then explain why you dont blast McNabb for choking.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 17, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh there's no doubt

I will hammer McNabb when he chokes. The problem is, it seems people claim he chokes a lot more then I see him do it. If the offense has good momentum, running game is doing well, WR’s are getting separation and holding onto the ball and the play calling is for the most part playing to our strengths, and the defense is holding down their side…I will gladly lambast McNabb if we lose. if he is the biggest problem I see that day, McNabb gets it. if he is the 2nd, 3rd or 4th biggest problem, he will get it. But after that, how can you put all the blame on him? When the playcalling goes away from the run even though we are avaeraging 4.8 yds a carry, when the receiver is dropping balls that they get their hands on , when the defense allows 24 or more points, how can people blame McNabb solely? I understand the QB is the most frequent target but from a realistic standpoint, you have to take into consideration very aspect of the game. Examples. Oakland loss, biggest blame goes to Reid for going away from run. 1st Dallas loss, that’s on McNabb for worm burning it, 2nd Dallas loss combination of McNabb and defense(you have to get points), Playoff loss, that is WR’s (for not getting any separation) O Line (for being a sive) and defense for allowing that fucking draw play after draw play to work. Like the 2nd game against them. McNabbs biggest mistake that playoff game, going away from his only productive option, Celek. Basically, I try to be fair and assign the blame where it goes. But too many people always think the blame goes on McNabb when it shouldn’t.

"Life's a bitch, but God forbid the bitch divorce me" Nas

"Your penis fits me just perfectly" My Ex Girlfriend

by Talon Talent on Feb 18, 2010 1:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Farve is 1000x more accurate than Dmac

just because he threw a pick at the end of the game while trying to make something happen doesnt refute the fact that Favre’s more accurate them McNabb.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 17, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea..

Those 2 passes to Sidney Rice were beautiful. I just can’t see Mcnabb making those.

by Team Serbia on Feb 17, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

yep, exactly.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 17, 2010 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

You must close your eyes every time he makes a play

I also can’t see Mcnabb throwing that pick at the end of the game

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Feb 18, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

You're going to tell me

you could see Mcnabb making those throws? Where the receiver is completely covered and the ball is thrown to lead the receiver into the only spot the receiver can grab it? Come on. I’m not saying Mcnabb doesn’t make plays but those plays no way, not even in his prime did he make those.

by Team Serbia on Feb 19, 2010 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Excellent way to open up your "career" on the site

Very in-depth and detailed report here. Can’t say I agree totally with some of the points or the simple fact that McNabb’s time is up, but nice job.

Cody Benjamin

www.bleedgreenforever.wordpress.com

by kingmcnabb5 on Feb 15, 2010 1:50 PM EST reply actions  

Yeap

Effort is great, you fired a strong arrow, EagleDon… just needs to be better targeted. I’m sure it’ll come.

by Alon on Feb 16, 2010 1:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I have to point out one rather large flaw in your argument

You list “The Seven Biggest Games of McNabb’s Playoff Career” as being all his losses.

In other words, you seem to leave out:
2005 NFC Championship v. the Falcons (no explanation needed)
2002 NFC Divisional Round v. the Bears (arguably where the Eagles began their reign as one of the NFC’s best teams)
2004 NFC Divisional Round v. the Packers (4th quarter comeback – and 4th and 26)
2009 NFC Divisional Round v. the Giants (taking down the number 1 seed in the Meadowlands)
2001 NFC Wild Card v. the Bucs (McNabb’s 1st playoff game; don’t think it really matters in the whole scheme of things but I put it here anyway)

While I don’t think all of these would make the top 7, in what way would you quantify the playoff loss to the Giants in ’01 or the loss to the Rams as being bigger than that NFC Championship we won? Or perhaps the ’09 game v. the Giants?

You said that McNabb lost the biggest game of the SEASON seven times, which is true. But when you get right down to it, whatever the next playoff game is is automatically the biggest game of the season. McNabb wins wild card weekend, he’s won the biggest game of the season. McNabb wins divisional round, he’s won the biggest game of the season. McNabb loses the NFC Championship, he’s lost the biggest game of the season.

So if you lose a playoff game, period, you’ve lost the biggest game of the season. and if you win, vice versa. McNabb’s playoff record is 9-7, so one could argue he’s won the biggest games more times than not (but of course, his playoff losses are of far greater magnitude than his playoff wins.)

In conclusion, you cannot, cannot, CANNOT say that the seven biggest games of McNabb’s playoff career are all his losses. That’s like saying “Peyton Manning has lost 9 of the 10 biggest games of his playoff career; ergo he is not a winner” or “Dan Marino lost all ten of the biggest games while Trent Dilfer won 1 of 2; therefore Dilfer is better.” It ignores a lot of what he’s done in the playoffs.

(BTW, the best he did in a playoff loss was only last year; he started slow and it wasn’t pretty, but he pulled us back from an 18-point deficit, and if not for a horrific D and an awful Akers, we might be talking about 2 NFC championships. You never know)

by alcatraz0109 on Feb 15, 2010 1:52 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed

Judging only by playoff losses without counting in the playoff wins doesn’t quite seem fair to me.

by Rabbit T on Feb 15, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

he's arguing

that mcnabb should go, including positive points for mcnabb would be counterproductive. that’s for the mcnabb supporters to argue back to him, and hence make a discussion of it.

i do agree w/ your points…btw.

"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."

by greenbean#twoOH on Feb 15, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

personally, i’m on the fence about the whole thing. I want McNabb back only if we can’t get a great deal for him. I want Kolb back regardless.

I’m saying that he’s not really examining the wins, which I believe should matter as well. I agree that they don’t make up for the losses, but he should at least get some credit for them.

by alcatraz0109 on Feb 15, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm also on the fence...as a fan..

i think from a business aspect, Mcnabb has to be traded, and a debacle avoided after next season if he walks away. You drafted Kolb high, you’ve trained him for 3 years, see what he has to offer if you believe in him.
  If not Kolb should be traded, Mcnabb extended, and a future qb picked in the draft. I think from a PR standpoint, that would cause the Eagles the least fall out. Just recoup that second round pick you wasted on kolb.

I can see either scenario being really positive for the Eagles, no matter what they choose. Bring in a big FA to shore up the defense a little, and draft the rest. At a minimum the Eagles would end up with a 1st, 2/2nds, 2/3rds and 2/4ths….that could equate A LOT of young talent for them. No matter who’s the QB, as long as one goes, they should have a really solid team next year.

With all the rumors, and crap so far….i think the biggest disapointment, would be if no one is moved.

"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."

by greenbean#twoOH on Feb 15, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the point is

That none of McNabb’s playoffs (not games but the entire playoffs) have ended with a win. 4th and 26 against the Packers was HUGE but did we win that year? We moved on to a more important game and we lost it. Or in 2009 we made the improbable run to the NFC championship after knocking off the Giants… then we lost to a team we crushed in the regular season. McNabb has racked up his playoff record in the divisional and wild card rounds, only one win in a conference championship and then failed to win the Super Bowl that year. Who cares if he won those divisional games if it doesn’t translate to a championship? (Though I will admit beating the Giants last year was pretty frigin sweet.)

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Feb 15, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

you're right

and I agree with everyone else, the losses are much more glaring than the wins. But would you say McNabb has had absolutely no playoff success? Or is it more like he hasn’t been able to finish the job?

This is my main issue with this post. It seems like EagleDon makes it seem a bit like the former, while I (and a great deal of Eagles fans) would say it is like the latter. His losses have been damning to say the least, but he’s had some impressive wins as well and I would at least give him some credit for it.

by alcatraz0109 on Feb 15, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s the latter, he can’t seem to finish the job. He has had some very good playoff games but unfortunately he just hasn’t been there when it really really counted. I figure at this point McNabb isn’t going to get any better and might actually start to decline, we’ve moved on from every other cornerstone of our NFC dominance years, maybe it’s time to throw in someone new at QB while McNabb has the most trade value he’s going to from now on.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Feb 15, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

The reason they are the 7 biggest games...

Yes, each of those games you listed was a big game, and a big win.

My point is, if you look at it objectively, the biggest game in each of those years was the final playoff game. That is the game that gets them one step closer to the Super Bowl, or the actual Super Bowl itself.

Tough to argue that in 2005 the Falcons game was bigger than the Super Bowl v the Pats. Same for 2009, yes the divisional round win against the Giants was big, however the game after that against the Cards for the right to go to the Super Bowl was certainly a much bigger game. 2004 against the Packers was a big stepping stone and a very big comeback win, however I would say that the game against the Panthers was a bigger game, it was for the right to go to the Super Bowl.

There were also many big games during the regular season that he won that people can certainly point to and say he stepped up. My simple point is, that in my view, the most imortant game of the year is always the final playoff game. That is the defining game of the season.

by EagleDon on Feb 15, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Your point is wrong
My point is, if you look at it objectively, the biggest game in each of those years was the final playoff game. That is the game that gets them one step closer to the Super Bowl, or the actual Super Bowl itself.

You realize that this path of logic leads you down the path to statistical destruction? By your logic, Tom Brady is a bad playoff QB since he’s lost more of his most important games than he’s won!?

That’s right! Tom Brady is 3-4 in the most important game of the year by your definition!

Wanna know who’s even worse?

Take a guess.

Joe Montana! He’s really bad, he’s lost just as many most important games of the year (8) as McNabb. He’s 4-7 in most important games of the year.

by Alon on Feb 15, 2010 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course, they actually have a number higher than zero in the first column.

 People would back off of McNabb a LOT more if he actually won a Super Bowl…but guess what? He hasn’t and nothing indicates that he will.

RIP Jim Johnson, best ever.
Kurt Warner: HOF Class of 2015

by Imp on Feb 15, 2010 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I knew someone would point this out, while missing the major point that NO ONE is a good playoff QB by his logic. Some win 1 game, and all of a sudden they’re great playoff QBs? It doesn’t follow.

People would definitely back off McNabb if he won a Super Bowl. No need to guess what, because he clearly hasn’t. What indicates that he will? Talent, and the team around him. What indicates that he won’t? Certainly not the statistics in this argument. I’d say age — he’s no longer in his prime. But historical track record is extremely flimsy when your lens is “record in the last game of the season,” just like it would be if your lens was “record in the first game of the season.” That’s all I’m pointing out right here.

by Alon on Feb 15, 2010 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

"If not for a horrific D and an awful Akers"

You forgot to mention Kevin Curtis getting tripped on 4th down

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Feb 16, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

tripped=mugged.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 17, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

nice post...

"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."

by greenbean#twoOH on Feb 15, 2010 2:09 PM EST reply actions  

Holy fuck

is there a cliff notes version?

by Tbot86 on Feb 15, 2010 2:43 PM EST reply actions  

Hahahahahahaha

LMAO!

First comment to actually have me literally laughing my ass off!

(Well, not literally to the point where my ass has detached from my body, but laughing to the point where I’m laughing out loud. By myself. In my office.)

But anyways, I agree… nice post EagleDon. But is there a shorter version? Unfortunately I don’t have the time or energy to read the whole thing right now. Kudos to you, though. Well done.

by Smitty2K3 on Feb 15, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I skipped to the comments immediately

and I don’t mean to be a jerk when I say that, because anyone who puts that much effort into a post is certainly welcome here on BGN.

My point is it’s simply not this complicated.

It’s 1) If the Eagles believe McNabb is their best chance at winning a Super Bowl, keep him.
or
2) If they believe Kevin Kolb + whatever they can get in return for McNabb provides a better chance, do that.

Under no circumstances should they let Kolb leave.

All this “can McNabb or can’t he” is fine conjecture to pass the time in the offseason, so don’t let me stop anybody. But in reality, football is a team game, and nobody can know whether a McNabb-led team will win the SB or not.

There’s plenty of evidence to suggest that lesser QBs than McNabb have led more complete teams to SB victories, so characterizing those who say “address the other deficiencies on the team” as solely McNabb apologists is misleading at best.

Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome

by D3Keith on Feb 15, 2010 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Let me see if I get the essence of your post...

The goal is to win the Super Bowl. Which is something the Eagles haven’t done during the McNabb years.

You feel that he has the talent to win a Super Bowl with another team.

Therefore, the obvious move is for the Eagles to trade McNabb.

Somewhere in the depths of your post you had a massive, epic logic fail.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 15, 2010 2:45 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

I’m missing the part where he says McNabb has the talent to win elsewhere.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Feb 15, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

2nd to last paragraph
With his talent he may win a Super Bowl for another team. He has the talent, and if he keeps up this level of regular season play for a few more years he may make the Hall of Fame.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 15, 2010 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL

Exposed.

Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome

by D3Keith on Feb 15, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty Good Stuff

Good argument. Some holes, but what football-related p.o.v. doesn’t have those?

Anyway, welcome to the site. Finally, someone who writes longer fanposts than I do!

I agree it’s time for Kolb, though not for all of the same reasons.

Veritas Liberabit Te

by DSmith215 on Feb 15, 2010 3:03 PM EST reply actions  

jason said it best..
But if they were all as well done as this they might not be so redundant!

Follow Bleeding Green Nation on Twitter
by JasonB

"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."

by greenbean#twoOH on Feb 15, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

...hot damn.

Great job. Wish I could rec this twice…

RIP Jim Johnson, best ever.
Kurt Warner: HOF Class of 2015

by Imp on Feb 15, 2010 5:38 PM EST reply actions  

Damn good post bud...

My only problem with it is when you said most eagles fans want reid gone, I think thats not true, I’d say the minority wants him gone and the majority wants him to stay..

You basically took everything i’ve said about mcnabb over the past month or two and supported it 100%

GO KOLB!!!

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 15, 2010 7:36 PM EST reply actions  

The anti-Reid cult is growing. I supported him up until this year. A decade was enough for me. I’m so sick of seeing the offense fail because Andy can’t create a gameplan without throwing a bomb every 8 plays. He throws a lot of our momentum away with some of his bland and predictable play calling. If the offense doesn’t score on a long play than chances are it won’t at all. After looking back on it, I’m not sure why I wanted him here all that time. The other side has a point, he gets us to the playoffs. Which really is half the battle. I just don’t think he has the guile and stones to coach a team to a superbowl victory.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Feb 16, 2010 1:02 AM EST up reply actions  

if we had a QB who could complete something other than a Deep bomb it'd be alot

better… I’d have to say though nobody could stop Desean going deep when McNabb had enough time to throw a prayer, that’d be my game plan every time.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 16, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re a moron for one reason and one reason only: This is the second year in a row where the Eagles set a scoring record, and you’re bitching about our offense. Sure, it could improve, but to bitch about it is idiotic.

I am the people's troll :3™

by yomjoseki on Feb 16, 2010 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

It didnt translate to a SB so im gonna bitch away.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 16, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you are the moron here. How many games against teams with winning averages did we beat? Not a single one. Racking up points against bad teams is all well and good but teams with a half way decent defense were able to shut down the long ball and make us play short, which we couldn’t do. It’s why Oakland beat us. If we can’t score from way out (which we did many times against bad teams) we can’t score. It’s how David Akers was nearly our team MVP this year. It’s pathetic.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Feb 17, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Oakland beat us because we didn’t have an offensive line. You clearly did not see that game. We beat 11 teams. You can’t say they were all bad. Many of the so-called bad teams were one loss away from the playoffs (and how did that happen? Oh, right, we beat them) We lost 5 games. One to Oakland, 2 to Dallas, 1 to San Diego, and the Saints (whom McNabb did not play against).

Pinning it all on McNabb is idiotic. Besides, what is he supposed to do? Not score against crappy teams? Given all the injuries we endured this year, it’s a miracle we won 11 games.

All teams with a half way decent defense shut us down? How did we win 11 games then? Were none of those defenses any good?

Fact is you don’t break scoring records and win 11 games with a QB who should be shown the door.

I am the people's troll :3™

by yomjoseki on Feb 17, 2010 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

We beat 11 teams

Who combined to win 40.1% of their games (57-85). And my bad, Atlanta ended with a winning record at 9-7. We weren’t able to compete with a single contender. Mostly because our offense is based around the long ball. How many games did we win grinding it out the way good teams do? Going from goal line to goal line and putting it across the line? It wasn’t often. I loved racking up points against the Giants, but they finished in the bottom 5 in the league for scoring defense. No, he’s supposed to score against crappy teams, but they need to be taken into account for what they are, lots of points against CRAPPY TEAMS!

The McNabb/Reid tandem has showed us for a decade that they don’t have the wherewithal to win when it really matters. They have won 0 superbowls, with good players, bad players and truly great players. Nothing. The only time we even made it in our years of “NFC dominance” McNabb showed he didn’t have the guts to get it done. This team is set up well for years to come with the young talent we posses on the offensive side of the ball. Wouldn’t now be the best time to make the transition to a QB who can lead us forward? McNabb is talented he just hasn’t gotten it done and achieved what we should be expecting from him. And of course all the blame isn’t on him, a good bit is on Andy Reid, but judging from his recent extension, he is the guy the FO is going to ride and if we have to make a change from this tandem it’s going to be McNabb. The defense also is to blame but hey, they held Oakland to 13 points which should have been more than enough, O-Line or no O-line good QBs will find a way, McNabb didn’t.

And I don’t think you’ll find many people here who are saying that Kolb is going to come out and be better than McNabb next year. I’m certainly not. I think at this point McNabb is probably better. I’m looking beyond the here and now to our future as a team. McNabb isn’t there even if we trade Kolb tomorrow. McNabb isn’t young. He’s been hurt a lot, he takes a lot of sacks, these things don’t translate well to longevity. Why would we want to make an aging, injury prone, hasntyetwonanything QB the center of our football team going forward?

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Feb 17, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Whatever you say man. We beat teams almost all of the teams we should’ve beat, and we lost five games. Let’s say for argument’s sake we lost to the Broncos and beat the Chargers. Would you have been happier that we beat a playoff opponent?

What would make you happy? We need to go undefeated?

Some people won’t be happy with their team no matter what, and I could really care less what you think. Winnings 11 games in the NFL is impressive in any context, and it doesn’t really matter who your opponents are. The Eagles overcame a lot of obstacles to get there. So what if we didn’t beat a playoff team.

I am the people's troll :3™

by yomjoseki on Feb 17, 2010 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

So what? It means we didn’t win anything this year. Did we win a Super Bowl? No. I’m not happy with an 11-5 season because it ended with us getting absolutely nothing. We can go 8-8, make the playoffs and get to the NFC championship or even the Super Bowl and I’d have been much happier because we at least competed with the best. What positive can you take away from beating a ton of crap teams and then when given chances to play and beat elite teams we failed miserably? We were 11-5 and it was a very unimpressive 11-5 and honestly we should have been 12-4 but we couldn’t figure out how to beat one of the most mismanaged teams in football. We weren’t a very good team this year.

So say 11-5 and “scoring record” all you want because what did that get us? We were supposed to set scoring records and we were supposed to have a good record this year, however we were also supposed to contend for a Super Bowl and we weren’t even close to contending, not even close.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Feb 18, 2010 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s not all I want but hey at least we’re not the Rams. But I guess you’d rather be the Rams because they won a Super Bowl a decade ago, right? Who cares if they haven’t won a meaningful game in forever, their QB situation is a joke, and they have a very high draft pick every year. Right? That’s what you want?

I’m happy for what we have while wanting better. Taking for granted what McNabb has done for this team is stupid.

I seriously don’t understand the whole “ditch McNabb because he hasn’t won a Super Bowl” crowd. It’s beyond illogical.

Let’s get back to my original point:

I’m so sick of seeing the offense fail

You = idiot.

I am the people's troll :3™

by yomjoseki on Feb 18, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn’t be laughing at the Rams, at least they’ve won a Super Bowl. Since they’ve won we aren’t too much different from them, we both fail every single year. And you still aren’t looking beyond the now. Say we keep McNabb, don’t fool yourself Kolb and Vick will be long gone. He plays for three more years maybe, then what? We go and get a QB in the draft and he gets chucked into a starting role immediately, or sits on the bench and watches some washed veteran we called in to “groom” him. Either way there, whether he starts we have put in a bandaid QB, we aren’t going to be very good and chances are, like most young QBs, he won’t pan out because he wasn’t given the time to adapt and grow as a player and leader. If we trade McNabb now, we get something decent back for him, and we have a QB here who has shown the ability to be a legit NFL QB and we’ve spent the last few years getting ready for this very moment. He’ll be surrounded by talent on offense and another thing I consider a plus, his arm isn’t as strong and Reid is going to know that. Immediately half the deep balls come out of the playbook to play to Kolb’s strength. Those deep balls which time and time again has killed our offense in big games will be gone. So stick with McNabb now and maybe win (not likely given the track record) for the next couple of years, or have a slightly less chance of winning this year but have a QB who we can continue to build around for years to come. I’d take the shot at the future since the present configuration hasn’t gotten it done.

And if the offense wasn’t failing, what was it doing in our losses? 10 points per game against Dallas including a shut out? A whole 9 points against Oakland? When we won we were averaging nearly 33 points a game, when we lost 14. So if the offense wasn’t failing, what caused the drop in 19 points a game?

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Feb 18, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m going to be done with this particular subject after this post.

Who is to credit for the 33 points per game during our wins? In your book, not McNabb, right? But he’s to blame for the drop in production during our losses?

11-5 and the wins aren’t good enough for you because you deem the opponents inferior. Well, shit. That’s probably because we beat them. Yeah, the losses sucked and the fact that we didn’t beat any of the teams we lost to surely isn’t a positive note, but that’s not one man’s fault.

People who argue against McNabb’s production rarely make sense and this is another example.

I am the people's troll :3™

by yomjoseki on Feb 18, 2010 2:58 AM EST up reply actions  

McNabb takes equal credit in both, I’ve never said anything bad about his performances when we win. However I probably could have beaten the Panthers or the Chiefs or Washington. I can’t beat the Cowboys, he was supposed to and failed miserably three times.

It’s not like the those 11 games we won were those team’s first lost. Most of our wins came against teams that week in and week out lost miserably, they were inferior because EVERYONE BEAT THEM (except the Redskins, everyone beat them). There are different kinds of 11-5s, our 11-5 sucked ass because our 11 was against horrible teams and the 5 was against the ones we were supposed to contend with but instead looked more like one of the 11.

And I’m pretty sure if you’ve actually paid attention to this thread at all you would see that I wasn’t blaming it just on one man. The post you replied to initially I think was one of me talking about Andy Reid, the assbackwards play caller. I think after all those NFC championship games and that one Super Bowl it should be perfectly clear that Andy Reid and Donovan McNabb can’t get it done. They are the most important people on the field, the one who sets up the game plan and the one who executes it. McNabb couldn’t execute the plan against good teams, of which we were supposed to be one.

And my argument isn’t that McNabb is a bad QB, he’s a damned good one. My argument is that he will not win us a Super Bowl, can you find a single shred of evidence that suggests he can from the last decade?

The record doesn’t show it well but the Eagles were by far the biggest disappointment of the season.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Feb 18, 2010 3:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Hehehe
However I probably could have beaten the Panthers or the Chiefs or Washington.

I love exaggeration. I do it myself all the time. But when I think about one of us BGNers stepping under center against an NFL team, I can only imagine the carnage.

by NOLACuse on Feb 18, 2010 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I wish I could point you to my trophy case, however there aren’t any. I would be a bloody mess.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Feb 18, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

They had it pretty much clinched at that point, and he made up for it by beating the Colts when it really really mattered.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Feb 19, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

exactly

E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!

by Joe_D on Feb 24, 2010 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Great post

Crazy long but it was a good read. Yeah, it is hard to imagine McNabb next year suddenly being able to do the things he never has been able to do in his career (e.g., 64-65% comp pct, greater accuracy on the 7-10 yds routes, etc). I also don’t know if the the Eagles will be able to put enough around McNabb either this offseason to enable them to make a deep playoff run/get back to the Super Bowl.

by MG77 on Feb 15, 2010 9:30 PM EST reply actions  

Only in the NFL would seven not-randomly-selected games

over the course of 11 seasons be considered a valid sample size.

By similar logic, one could take three not-randomly-selected games against playoff teams in which McNabb played well and suppose that, provided with a first-round bye, he could quarterback a team to three consecutive victories over other playoff teams, culminating in a Super Bowl victory.

I think placing this all at the quarterback’s feet is tunnel vision. It’s easy, because he’s been the lone constant besides Reid in all of the years that we haven’t won the Super Bowl (though I don’t remember anyone saying Dawkins or Jim Johnson couldn’t lead a defense to a Super Bowl after their failure in ’08.)

The truth is, very few of the teams McNabb have led into the playoffs have been one of the two or three best teams in the NFL. Some overachieved (2003, 2008) and most were carried by a defense much better than its offense. I think ’04 is the only year you can legitimately argue that McNabb should have led us to a Super Bowl victory. Everything else is could have.

Super Bowl champions don’t give up 27 points in the second quarter. They don’t score 3 points in an NFC Championship Game. They don’t give up 14-play, 72-yard, 8-minute touchdown drives in the fourth quarter. There’s is more to all seven of the losses in question, factors which contributed to the Eagles’ losing. McNabb has certainly been one of them — he threw three picks in the Super Bowl, his offense wasn’t all that great against Carolina or Tampa Bay.

But none of that really amounts to a hill of beans for 2010. It’s either, do they believe McNabb+Kolb is better than Kolb+Vick/someone else plus the McNabb haul.

Personally, I think the offense doesn’t need to come out of the offseason with one new starter (if Nick Cole can play center). It’s sufficient; not necessarily exceptional, but good enough if the other two units are exceptional. I’d feel confident with McNabb at the helm if, for example, Julius Peppers comes in and Stewart Bradley is healthy and we have a great draft.

There are certainly valid anti-McNabb arguments, like saying we need a more accurate passer to run the West Coast offense well, and there are overlooked McNabb positives, like his low turnover rate.

I don’t know that Andy Reid feels the way about McNabb that the rest of the fanbase feels. I think Reid thinks he can win with Don, and the only reason he’d consider trading him is because he’s 34 and still has a lot of trade value.

Whether or not McNabb stays or goes, I don’t “he hasn’t won the big one in the past” will ever be a valid argument to determine whether he can or can’t win one in the future.

Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome

by D3Keith on Feb 15, 2010 9:41 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Hah
Only in the NFL would seven not-randomly-selected games over the course of 11 seasons be considered a valid sample size.

I just want to highlight for everyone that D3Keith is BEING SARCASTIC. In no place ever is 7 non-random games over 11 years EVER EVER EVER a valid sample size. Therefore, all analysis done on such a selection is COMPLETELY, UTTERLY USELESS trash.

by Alon on Feb 15, 2010 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

That was his point

In other words, the NFL is so illogical that 7 games in 11 years constitutes a large sample size

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Feb 16, 2010 11:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Or better yet

the OP is illogical in his analysis of hte NFL

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Feb 16, 2010 11:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i know it was

that’s why i was making it clear. are we disagreeing on anything?

also, as an aside, there are useful sample sizes in the NFL. Stuff like pass attempts, plays, all those things accumulate large samples even in just 16 games. So that’s good.

by Alon on Feb 17, 2010 1:10 AM EST up reply actions  

dear god, egregious abuse of stats

A lot of you are right. This post is an incredible, shining example of something:

People have no f’ng clue what’s going on when it comes to numbers.

If you want to read the post in brevity, skip these next 2 paragraphs.

I know, I know, it hurts to hear it, but it’s true. Dan Kahneman won a Nobel Prize in economics based on this simple observation: when people are asked if they want to undergo a surgery, more people will undergo the surgery if they are told 70% of people survive than if they are told that 30% of people die.

What’s the relevance? It’s difficult to think about numbers. We’re not naturally selected to think about complex numbers, we’re naturally selected to think about trajectories like how to throw a spear (or football). Donovan McNabb would have made an excellent hunter, and the lot of us would have made shit-tastic appreciators of his art. Sure, he brings home a mastodon every week, but what about those weeks when he only brings a crappy sloth!?

In all seriousness, and in all brevity, here’s the problem with this diary:

It abuses sample size. It’s a simple concept, D3Keith and Grover have both pointed out the abuse of statistics. This is just like a doctor telling you that 50% of people who take this medicine die immediately whereas just 20% of people die who don’t take it, without telling you that the people who DO take it have terminal cancer. The games you point out are a selective, biased, awful, craptacular sample. Pick out all of McNabb’s losses, and they pile up bad stats. Why didn’t you pick on the other players’ shortcomings? Point out another correlation (strength of defense, strength of team) that is even stronger than McNabb’s statistics?

True, McNabb played sub-par. But sub-par QB play does not mean an NFL loss. Much more likely to influence those? Missed routes resulting in INTs, fumbles, poor defensive effort, poor offensive line play, all of which prevent the offense from playing for lengthy periods of time (Time of Possession is strongly correlated with points scored for obvious reasons).

So, look to D3Keith and Grover for your guidance on this issue. Don’t look at this veritable poo-poo potpouri of mis-represented statistics. This post is akin to Big Tobacco claiming cigarettes doesn’t kill people based on bullshit reasons, but it’s flipped. McNabb is not our team’s carcinogen. The cigarette to our Super Bowl Lungs is the entire team, of which McNabb is an important but non-decisive part.

Do I like Kolb? I love Kolb. I think Kolb will be a Pro-Bowler. I’d be delighted if he started for us. But, at least come up with good reasons for taking McNabb off the Eagles starting field. At least take an introductory statistics course. Mistakes like these are remedied after 3 hours of class.

by Alon on Feb 15, 2010 9:53 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Couple things...

Grover is a little bit nuts and prefers his name spelled with a lower case “g” unless you are using his name at the start of a sentence.

I really wasn’t going after the use of stats. I’m being critical of the poor logic which argues that: The goal is to win the SB and McNabb is talented enough to take a team to the SB, therefore the Eagles need to trade McNabb.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 15, 2010 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

haha fair enough

yet knowing you from early AN days, i also know you’re a relative stathead and most likely recognize the statistical fallacies of this diary.

sorry for capitalizing ;)

by Alon on Feb 15, 2010 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure

But what’s the point in worrying about the numbers when you know the equation is is screwed to Hell and gone?

AN’s early days… sheesh! Thanks for making me feel old. :-)

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 15, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

haha i agree

but i figured that the argument needed to be deconstructed from every possible angle, from its fundamentally flawed logic to its fundamentally flawed stats.

and don’t feel old, it’s interwebs years which is like regular years times 23

by Alon on Feb 15, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

using the same extrapolations in this diary

to me this means that somewhere between pre-history and post dinosaurs came the golden age of logic.

Annunaki?

by Alon on Feb 15, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm just happy when I'm not accused/suspected of having a brain the size of a walnut

‘Cause I’ll tell you… sometimes size does matter.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 15, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Poor stats, poor logic
I really wasn’t going after the use of stats. I’m being critical of the poor logic which argues that: The goal is to win the SB and McNabb is talented enough to take a team to the SB, therefore the Eagles need to trade McNabb.

I kinda was :) Alon sniffed me out. Grover (started a sentence) has the flawed logic covered.

I know it’s the offseason. And I know there are some complicated factors which go into this decision (i.e. the contract numbers after 2010; whoever did that graph where Kolb’s performance passes McNabb’s boiled it down well)

Since past performance is inconclusive (Peyton Manning failed six straight trips to the playoffs before going 4-0) and since we really have no way of knowing exactly what the Eagles are weighing (i.e. what other teams are willing to trade for McNabb), these discussions are rather fruitless. Fun, yes. Time-consuming, sure.

But for every statistic someone runs out against McNabb, someone could run one out for him; and very little of it plays into whether or not keeping or trading McNabb is the Eagles’ best chance to win it all in 2010.

Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome

by D3Keith on Feb 16, 2010 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

it might be worthwhile having a fundamental statistics use diary or something, because this is really the type of thing that, going forward, will probably become more common as statistics are more accepted and become more advanced. A sort of “how-to!” guide on doing your own basic statistical research that won’t lead people astray.

After all, “there’s lies, damn lies, and statistics” … and yet, there’s nothing that’s more true than a well-formulated, fully-conceived, theoretically grounded statistic. People tend to accept numbers as gospel, so at least on this site it would be good to have a bastion of grounding so that people can read and infer whether statistically-minded diaries are valuable or misleading or outright false.

I defer to JasonB on the subject of whether it’s worth such a diary being a sticky one.

by Alon on Feb 16, 2010 1:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Let me also mitigate

I realize there’s a lot of vitriol, which isn’t like me. I really dislike seeing bad samples used for huge extrapolations that a lot of people decide to believe.

Good effort, this was definitely a fine attempt to use numbers, and I have no doubt you have a lot of numerical ability and with some more edification I hope you’ll use good numbers the next time. As yomjoseki points out, there’s a ton more to like about McNabb than dislike about him from a statistical standpoint, and this year he is our best bet — that doesn’t mean Kolb’s not better, it just measn we don’t know enough about Kolb to make him a safe bet. He’s higher risk this year, although the reward is the same (superbowl win) if both play well.

Sorry again for being derisive, but please, if you have such a good opportunity for soapbox education, don’t abuse it by proclaiming falsities to be facts.

by Alon on Feb 15, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

You know, I was going to make the whole McNabb/Elway comparison and talk about how McNabb has comparable numbers, and Elway didn’t win the Super Bowl until he was 37 and all that shit, but then I looked up the numbers.

McNabb has a better completion percentage, a higher TD percentage, a lower interception percentage, and a better playoff record (not counting Elway’s final two seasons). Fuck John Elway.

People only give McNabb shit because he’s not Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning is probably the best passer in the history of the game, and even he gets shit because he’s not Tom Brady. Tom Brady is America’s golden boy and even HE catches shit for not STILL being the Tom Brady of old. I mean, what the hell, Tom? You get three Super Bowls and then you give up! Why don’t you win them all?

There’s only ONE Super Bowl to win every year and the AVERAGE NFL career is 4 years. The fact of the matter is that we’ve had a chance every year under McNabb (for 11 years!) and he’s the best QB in our team history and there’s no reason to give up on him now.

Even if McNabb finishes his career without a Super Bowl, I am convinced thoroughly that he is our best option at QB going into this season at the very least.

I am the people's troll :3™

by yomjoseki on Feb 15, 2010 10:16 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

McNabb is probably the best option at QB next season

But the real question is and continues to be is this team going to be able to make enough moves this offseason to shore up the defense, special teams, and offensive line to enable them to have a very legit shot at making a deep playoff run/making it back to the Super Bowl. I don’t know if they can.

If not, they are probably better off trading McNabb, grabbing a high pick, installing Kolb, and really quietly continuing with what arugably was a rebuilding job starting last offseason.

by MG77 on Feb 15, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

MG77

I tend to agree with your posts and I’m with you here on the areas of need. By the right trade, I could even be convinced that dealing McNabb was the smart move.

But I don’t think “rebuilding” is the right characterization. I know what you mean, in that the past few seasons, they’ve gotten progressively younger to where they’re in good shape going forward at most positions on the roster.

But I very much think they’re built to win now, and are a few key offseason tweaks from putting forth a team that can go 12-4 and get a first-round bye in the NFC. For that reason, I’m wary of switching quarterbacks now, especially when we have other more immediate needs (as you mention) and when we’d basically be able to not miss a beat should we have a season-ending quarterback injury if we had McNabb and Kolb.

People talk about McNabb having had all these shots at it, but we really haven’t sent him into the playoffs with a complete team but once. We have a chance to do it next season, without mortgaging our Kolb-led future in any way, and see what the outcome is.

Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome

by D3Keith on Feb 15, 2010 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess you meant "rebuilding"

in that we changed over the O-line to Peters/Andrews, drafted McCoy to replace Westbrook, etc.

That’s another compelling reason to go at this once more with Don. This offense has barely had one shot at it, and it was with a severely weakened defense.

We are going to have plenty of chances to make a run at it with Kolb/Jackson/Maclin/Celek/McCoy/Weaver/Peters, etc. … Unless the Eagles feel they can bolster the team elsewhere by dealing McNabb OR they fear losing him after the year and getting nothing in return, I don’t see what the rush to get rid of him is.

Yes, he has weaknesses and he’s not going to change; but quite a bit around him could change for the better, and if he just plays the same, the team would be capable of winning it.

Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome

by D3Keith on Feb 16, 2010 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

They have rebuilt but just not 'rebuilt'

Look at all of the major guys on offense/defense that they have let go/moved on from the last year so – Runyan, Thomas, Buckhalter, Dawkins, etc. It wasn’t a wholesale rebuilding job but they have replaced an awful lot of key veterans on this team in the last year or so. Even this offseason, there is a real possibility that Westbrook isn’t back and that McNabb gets moved. It is ‘rebuilding’ although the Eagles just haven’t had to do wholesale rebuilding like they did at the end of the Ray Rhodes regime.

by MG77 on Feb 16, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Eagles are very good

at not having to have a full out rebuilding year. I remember I thought we would have to when we were going to lose Vincent and Taylor but sheppard and Brown stepped right in and kept it going. Big props to the Eagles for being able to make that transition.

" AK 47! When you absolutely, positively have to kill every muthafucka in the room! Except no substitute." Samuel L Jackson- Jackie Brown

"You know what you should do United Nations? You should sanction me. Sanctiom me with your army! Oh, wait a minute! You ain't got an army! Guess that means you need to shut the fuck up! That's what I would do if I didn't have an army. I would shut the fuck up! Shut...The...Fuck...Up!!!" Black Bush

by Talon Talent on Feb 17, 2010 1:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree with you both

That’s why I don’t hate the Eagles’ FO like a lot of our more short-sighted fans do.

We haven’t had to suffer through a year that begins with no hope at all in quite some time.

Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome

by D3Keith on Feb 17, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Now that you bring up Elway ...

… I feel it’s appropriate to share this tidbit I picked up while editing stuff for the Super Bowl:

Favre’s playoff record is 12-10, including 1-1 in Super Bowls
P. Manning’s 9-9, including 1-1 in Super Bowls.
McNabb’s is 9-7, including 0-1 in Super Bowls.

If he goes 3-0 and wins the Super Bowl next year, he’ll have a superior postseason resume to two sure-fire hall of famers.

Doesn’t have much to do with whether or not he’s a better option than Kolb + trade haul at this point, but it does validate the Elway comparison in that certain players are deemed great early in their careers by a single big-game success, and others don’t have that success until later in their career, if at all.

Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome

by D3Keith on Feb 15, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Just to add a kicker

EagleDon even says that your 3-0 run/SB win is possible; that McNabb has the talent to do just that!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 15, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

mcnabb

lost his first super bowl…both favre/peyton won their first super bowl. if he stays i hope he has the elway career path.

"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."

by greenbean#twoOH on Feb 15, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

The overarching point here ...

… really should be that no quarterback alone wins or loses Super Bowls, although it’s true that your chances of winning one are much better if your QB plays well.

Sometimes I think people just want change for the sake of change; next season would obviously be viewed through an entirely different prism with Kolb at QB. But continuity is one reason why the Eagles have been fairly successful over time. Rather than making a major change on an offense that appears to be on the cusp of being elite, maybe the defensive tweaks would make this a complete team.

And Super Bowl champs, with the rare exception, tend to be complete teams. To use an example, Eli’s Giants never win a Super Bowl if they don’t hold the most prolific offense of all time to 14 points. If they give up 27 in the second quarter, they’re toast.

In the same vein, the Eagles’ problem might be less about who is the QB than it is about figuring out how to beat Dallas. Those who say Kolb would complete a higher percentage of passes, therefore extending more drives & keeping the Dallas offense off the field might be on to something (I am not anti-Kolb, you might notice). But Dallas had our offense’s number and our defense’s number. At least 2 of the 3 times we played. Something in the way we attack them has to change; maybe it’s Kolb and the short passing game. But I’m not convinced it matters which QB plays when a team dominates you so thoroughly.

Switching QBs might well be fool’s gold if we don’t give McDermott the tools he needs so that side of the ball can carry its weight.

Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome

by D3Keith on Feb 16, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed and stipulated...

The QB always gets too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. The reason we have not won a Super Bowl in 50 years is not McNabb’s fault.

If we can’t find a way to turn our treasure trove of draft picks, 3 starting caliber QB’s, and big time cap space into a 2010 fix our LB, DE & secondary problems – even Elway, Brady and Montana in their prime may have trouble winning the Super Bowl with this team.

The point is you have actual, factual data to assess every position on the team and make decisions on how to make the team better by addressing that position or area of weakness.

We have 11 years of data with McNabb at QB that says he is capable of winning games (some of them very big games) and piling up stats. We also have an actual record of how he performs in the very biggest games of the year. If he had put the team on his shoulders once or twice in those seven tries, had a career defining game, and we ended up losing a heartbreaker maybe it buys some time. Instead, in seven tries he has underperformed. This does not mean he will underperform next time, however it certainly makes it much harder to argue that he won’t underperform.

As a note; Even the great Joe Montana was pulled from a playoff game and eventually traded to make room for someone the coach thought gave them a better chance to win the Super Bowl. Which they did.

No guarantee we are better without McNabb, but I do not see any factual data that says it is worth the chance to try it again with him. And his trade value will never be greater.

by EagleDon on Feb 16, 2010 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

sigh

couple thangs

firstly, it’s redundant to say factual data. unless you’ve fabricated data (which it must be assumed you have not, since you are a noble statisticians and science does not fabricate its data). just say facts or data.

secondly, again this is incorrect:

We also have an actual record of how he performs in the very biggest games of the year… in seven tries he has underperformed. This does not mean he will underperform next time, however it certainly makes it much harder to argue that he won’t underperform.

Firstly, I refer you above to why it’s absolutely preposterous to refer to his record in the biggest games of the year as anything more than selected chance that means nothing more than jack shit.

Secondly, it does NOT make it harder to argue he won’t underperform. Here’s the argument: You have a small, statistically biased sample size. That, in statistics (factually, based on data) means your argument means, quite literally, nothing. You may as well be talking about pink elephants. The sample size is so bad that I could use it as an example of why global warming isn’t happening and it would be only slightly less correlated with Donovan McNabb’s actual playoff talent.

 I implore you to read Moneyball — it’s not fundamentally about statistics (contrary to popular belief), but in it there’s excellent discussion on sample size issues as well as the brevity of what can be described as a “clutch” player. After that, take a stat class, because, really, these are fundamental issues you’re running into.

Here’s data saying it is worth it to try it again with him: He’s really, really, really good. He’s got weapons that are maturing into their prime, and QBs exit their prime less swiftly than every other NFL position, particularly very athletic QBs who are able to transition into pocket passers. Are McNabb’s best years ahead? Most probably not. Is he going to decline sharply? Just as probably not. There is much MORE data saying our best bet to win the SB is with our best QB, which, the data says, is most likely to be Donovan McNabb. I’m a huge Kolb fan, and yet I am fully aware that Kolb is an unknown quantity, and if you want to win the SB your best bet is continuity and premier talent. McNabb is that, Kolb might be that.

It’s different from when we cut BT & TV and those other vets. They were at the end of their peak, and it was clear that their abilities were declining. McNabb’s talents are not declining, and there is a lot more evidence supporting good QB play further into the 30s than for CBs, RBs, DEs, DTs, S’s, etc.

by Alon on Feb 16, 2010 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

You don't think Mcnabb is declining?

I don’t need stats to tell me he is. I’ve watched his play the last few years, and yes he is declining. Most people who advocate trading Mcnabb and going with Kolb is not because we heavily believe that Kolb will win us a superbowl in 2010. Its more of an investment for 2011 and so on, so that Kolb gets some continuity before his receivers hit their prime.

by Team Serbia on Feb 16, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm?

Perhaps you failed to read gooder, but ne’er do I say that McNabb isn’t declining.

Are McNabb’s best years ahead? Most probably not. Is he going to decline sharply? Just as probably not.

Here’s what that means to me, given that I wrote it:

McNabb will NOT be improving, most likely. But, he also won’t be falling off a cliff. I challenge you to read it differently. My points are supported by stats and scouting, if you disagree… what can I do? Sometimes people don’t believe something, no matter how much evidence is against them. See Creationists.

by Alon on Feb 16, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

BLASPHEMY!

Darwin is a charlatan!

"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."

by greenbean#twoOH on Feb 16, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

is a charlatan?

by gods, if he’s still alive he’s far more than a mere charlatan.

by Alon on Feb 16, 2010 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually...

The last sentence in the above post:

McNabb’s talents are not declining, and there is a lot more evidence supporting good QB play further into the 30s than for CBs, RBs, DEs, DTs, S’s, etc.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Feb 16, 2010 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Touche

i should have said:

McNabb’s talents are not sharply declining.

that’s what you get for writing a post 10 minutes before class

apologies , Serbia

by Alon on Feb 17, 2010 1:08 AM EST up reply actions  

McNabb issue comes down to this

McNabb is only here for one more year. That was abundantly clear when the Eagles refused to sign him to an extension last offseason. Unless something miraculous happens, 2010 will be McNabb’s last in an Eagles’ uniform.

Question is this team capable of upgrading the defense, special teams, and offense enough this offseason to have a real shot at getting back to the Super Bowl next year with McNabb? More and more I saw of the playoffs and the answer was ‘no’ although they certainly should be able to upgrade a few positions and be a playoff team again.

by MG77 on Feb 16, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

well done

I dont completely agree with you – but well done! And welcome to the Nation

I'd rather be an Eagles fan till the day i die and go 0-16 every year than be a cockroach cowboys fan

by 700 Level on Feb 16, 2010 7:11 AM EST reply actions  

I don't even need to get into this one...

My boys Alon, Yom, and D3 Keith held their own : )

Let me point out this mistake in your post that I caught. Not a biggie but still a mistake.

McNabb has thrown a pick in all seven games, he has never had more TD’s than INT’s in any of those games

NFC Champ game vs the Cards: 3 TD:1 INT. Yes, he struggled in the first half of that game. So did the defense. Second half, D played better, and Mcnabb pretty much singlehandedly brought the Eagles back to take the lead. The D lost us that game. The final 2 minute drive? Yes, it could have been better but the game should have been over.

EagleDon, great effort on your first post but using selective stats to support your argument is pretty infantile.

Damn! Couldn’t help but get into it!

by Route36 on Feb 16, 2010 12:15 PM EST reply actions  

Defense allowed one touchdown the second half.

Mcnabb was horrible in the first half. You can’t expect to take a half off, leave your defense hanging by constantly going 3 and out and not giving them rest, and then just turn it on and expect to win.

by Team Serbia on Feb 16, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

right

E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!

by Joe_D on Feb 16, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Similarly...

…the Wehrmacht was tired, so that made it easy for our boys to storm the beaches at Normandy.

...But if he pulls the rug on his quarterback, Reid must do it knowing that he let McNabb down more than McNabb ever let him down.

Phil Sheridan--Philadelphia Inquirer

by EvilBanner on Feb 16, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Meh even without that "D was tired"

Mcnabb still played like garbage and put us in that hole by putting up only 3 points at half against a defense that you’d have to defend is mediocre.

by Team Serbia on Feb 16, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

The defense was horrendous

That 1st half of the Cards game was the worst half of defense until the ’Boys game this year. It was pathetic – stupid penalties, poor execution, missed assignments, no pass rush, shoddy tackling. Nobody (including Dawkins) played even at an adequate level. Warner had time to throw and carved up the defense.

Eagles did make some adjustments at half-time but it was the defense that game up the late drive to the Cards to cost the Eagles the game. McNabb was down the list on why the Eagles lost that game.

by MG77 on Feb 16, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

McNabb was bad because the defense was tired.

We lost the Super Bowl because Donovan vomited.

And the space shuttle Challenger blew up because Ronald Reagan had waffles for breakfast.

Causality and causation is a bitch, fellas. It stumped me at first in philosophy class too. Read this. It will help

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-hume-causality/

...But if he pulls the rug on his quarterback, Reid must do it knowing that he let McNabb down more than McNabb ever let him down.

Phil Sheridan--Philadelphia Inquirer

by EvilBanner on Feb 16, 2010 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

If Mcnabb, a supposed "top 10" QB, scores more than 3 pts

in a huge game, then the Eagles go to the Super bowl. Say what you will about the defense, but the chances were there and Mcnabb couldn’t take advantage. You guys want to say that he is some prized possession right now, thats fine, then we will treat him as such.

by Team Serbia on Feb 16, 2010 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Akers missed a 47 yarder in the first half. There is your 3 points.

by Route36 on Feb 16, 2010 10:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Hypothetically

Let’s say Jason Campbell passed for 345 yards and put up 30 points against a team. Let’s also say that it should have been 33 points if SHaun Suisham made a 20 yard field goal. You probably wouldn’t think that defense was very good, would you?

A “supposed top 10 qb” would eat that defense alive, wouldn’t he? LIke Peyton Manning? He should own that defense.

Oh no what’s this? HE DIDN’T! TRADE HIM! DRAFT TEBOW!

Drew Brees scored just 17 points against Dallas’ defense. They were good.

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Feb 16, 2010 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not talking about regular season

If I was, I would bring up the Oakland game. I’m talking about the playoffs, where you get your shit together and the difference between mediocre and top QB’s is noticable. Instead he comes out completely flat on a team that we put up 45+ pts on a few weeks earlier. If he puts up one touchdown in the first half, its a completely different story.

You guys want to declare him as some QB messiah, thats fine, I will then treat him as such and call him out for what he needs to be called out. I don’t think he is a top 10 QB, and stats show this, and therefore i’m willing to move on because I don’t believe there is a big drop (or any drop) from Mcnabb to Kolb except for the fact that we get a 1st/2nd round pick by going with Kolb.

by Team Serbia on Feb 17, 2010 9:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah in the playoffs

Where you play elite defenses. I mean Favre really stepped up. So did Peyton Manning.

Great quarterbacks sometimes have bad games during the playoffs. The defenses are pretty good (and Dallas’ was definitely really good).

Brees faced one good defense in the playoffs (Indy’s was decent not great) of Dallas’ caliber and the Saints’ offense was quite unproductive. Turnovers and a few key plays helped them win, but let’s not act lke other quarterbacks dominate good defenses and Mcnabb is the only one to have a bad outing once in a while.

Oh, and I guess it doesn’t matter that Akers missed a field goal either. Or the fact that WE CAME BACK TO TAKE THE LEAD and were driving before they missed the trip on Kevin Curtis. Or the fact that the Super Bowl champs put up exactly TWO more points than we did against Arizona.

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Feb 18, 2010 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Thats fine and dandy that Mcnabb almost brought us back

but if he didn’t take the first half off it would have been a different story. And your going to say the superbowl champs put up two more points then we did? Really? It was the Steelers who won who were far and away known as a defensive team, not some offensive juggarnaut.

by Team Serbia on Feb 19, 2010 9:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Its so funny

McNabb supporters remind me of politicians. They will call you out for using stats, but they will say “Look at his statistics he had a 90 passer rating!>” Then they will say “look what he’s done in the past.” and then use scare tactics saying “we’ll go 1-15 without our inaccurate passer!!!!!”

Right. my favorite " Yeah hes not great, but he gives us the best chance to win" reminds me of “yeah this stimulus package isn’t great, might not do much, but we HAVE to pass it or else America will keep spiraling down.”

E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!

by Joe_D on Feb 16, 2010 1:43 PM EST reply actions  

Joe

I like your points generally, but this one reeks of does not follow.

All we’re saying is that the argument doesn’t make sense and cannot be true because it uses bad statistics. You should be proud of statisticians for pointing out flaws amongst their own ranks.

Secondly, the majority of data DO support the hypothesis that McNabb is our best bet in 2010. If you don’t understand why, that’s different from statisticians saying “Look here! Bam! Now look here! ZAP! I’m right!”

It’s a carefully analyzed, well thought-out analysis of available information. Is that so different than every time you see a red light and decide to stop? Nope. You analyze what’s around you, and a heuristic in your brain tells you that statistics show driving past a red light even when cops aren’t around is a generally bad idea. We’re just using that red light function for the McNabb trade talks.

All this is moot if we get good value. I don’t think Kolb is a major dropoff from McNabb, and if we can get a lot of good picks for Donovan I’m for it. Ditto Kolb.

by Alon on Feb 16, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Can anyone guess these stats?

Player A
7-7 Playoff Record in first 7 years his team reached playoffs (0-7 in final game, obviously)
16.4 pts scored per playoff loss
10 INTs in those 7 losses
224.1 yds per game passing in 7 losses

by Cormican on Feb 16, 2010 2:44 PM EST reply actions  

I think it’s Elway because I looked the other day and I’m pretty sure he was 7-7 before he won two Super Bowls.

I am the people's troll :3™

by yomjoseki on Feb 16, 2010 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct

Those are his stats right up the the year prior to winning 2 super bowls. And they’re almost the same as McNabb’s

by Cormican on Feb 17, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm guessing Marino

" AK 47! When you absolutely, positively have to kill every muthafucka in the room! Except no substitute." Samuel L Jackson- Jackie Brown

"You know what you should do United Nations? You should sanction me. Sanctiom me with your army! Oh, wait a minute! You ain't got an army! Guess that means you need to shut the fuck up! That's what I would do if I didn't have an army. I would shut the fuck up! Shut...The...Fuck...Up!!!" Black Bush

by Talon Talent on Feb 17, 2010 1:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Stats.......

Stats don’t mean crap, but stats can get you into the Hall of Fame. Dan Marino, Fran Tarkenton, Dan Fouts, Jim Kelly, Warren Moon….all hall of famers…and not one Super Bowl among them. And if John Elway hadn’t decided not to retire, he might be among them too. Took him 12-13 years to win a Super Bowl. Plus I could care less if a QB smiles or frowns on the sidelines. Everyone has their own way of showing their emotions. Hell, I laughed at my father’s funeral and told jokes. It was my way of dealing with his death. And I didn’t care what the other family members thought….lol.
I’ve been an Eables fan since I was in elementary school in the 60s. And I’ve learned throughout the years that some Eagles fans will always complain……not matter what. Even if the Eagles win a Super Bowl they’ll still find something to complain about….lol. I’m used to it now. But I still love the Eagles, Andy and McNabb for giving me the best 11 years I’ve had since I’ve been a fan. I played high school football and junior college football….and even tried out for the old Philadelphia Bell of the World Football League. Football has been in my blood for years. I liked McNabb from day one and continue to support him. I’d like to see the Eagles give him another shot. He deserves it. He’s won games playing on a broken ankle, with broken ribs and other injuries. If he doesn’t take the Eagles to the Super Bowl within the next 2 years, I wouldn’t feel bad to see him go. I’ll still be an Eagles fan. And I know I’ll still be listening to the complaints about Kolb or Vick or whoever else may become the QB for the Eagles. It happened with Norm Snead, Roman Garbriel, Sonny Jorgenson, Bobby Hoya, Randall Cunningham, Jaws. Eagles fans are never satisfied. I’m used to it now…..and those of you who continue to support Donovan should be used to it by now too. Eagles fans are fickle. Maybe they’d be happy with Eli Manning or Rothlisburger who couldn’t take their teams to the playoffs this year after winning a Super Bowl.
Stats??? The hell with stats…..but I like the fact that Donovan has consistantly taken the Eagles to the playoffs damn near every year. I’ve enjoyed some great football. Just my opinion…………………………..Gooooooooooooooooooooooo Eagles………

by Virgoman3 on Feb 16, 2010 5:31 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

ironically

your argument doesn’t disagree with statistics beyond the fact that you don’t like them

by Alon on Feb 16, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Seven times Donovan McNabb has played the biggest game of the Eagles postseason. Seven times he has lost.

Actually, that’s not true.

You see, McNabb’s played the most important game 16 times. He won 9 of them. After each of those games (which were up to that point the most important of the season), he got to play in a more important game. We all know he’s never won the Super Bowl. This does not mean he’s incapable. It just means he has been unable to this point.

I am the people's troll :3™

by yomjoseki on Feb 16, 2010 7:36 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

So what makes you think he will soon?

Especially now that hes getting up there in age, and where his skill is certainly not improving.

by Team Serbia on Feb 16, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

No QB in the history of the NFL has won a Super Bowl before the won a Super Bowl.

I am the people's troll :3™

by yomjoseki on Feb 16, 2010 9:49 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

they*

I am the people's troll :3™

by yomjoseki on Feb 16, 2010 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Obviously

But apart from the Elway comparison, i’m sure there are a lot more qb’s who haven’t won a superbowl, after not having won one in their first 11 years

by Team Serbia on Feb 16, 2010 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s like 35 (probably less… I don’t know the exact number and I’m not looking it up) Super Bowl winning QBs ever. Some Lombardis have been wasted going to shit-tastic QBs like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, and Joe Namath. Holding it against McNabb that he’s not amongst a more exclusive club than the Pro Football Hall of Fame is INSANITY.

I am the people's troll :3™

by yomjoseki on Feb 16, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

But thats what we want

or at least what I want. I don’t care about making the playoffs every year and getting eliminated before the superbowl every year. I want to win one. Thats it! I could live with five 0-16 seasons in a row if it means we win a superbowl next year. I was watching the Saints win it and I could only imagine how good Saints fans must feel.

What i’m saying is, I think we have enough evidence with Mcnabb that we won’t win with him. Its been 11 years, and he is past his prime. So lets put ourselves in the best position by acquiring a 1st/2nd rounder for him and take a chance with Kolb who has shown promise. If Kolb ends up sucking, then we took a calculated risk and it backfired, and we’re back to square one.

by Team Serbia on Feb 17, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Utter crap

Eagles’ fans say that and it is just not true. For all of the whining about the lack of a Super Bowl, this teams has generally been good/very good the last 20 years with few years down years.

People seem to conveniently forget that during the end of the Ray Rhodes regime there were plenty of empty seats at Eagles’ homes.

by MG77 on Feb 17, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Evidence?
I think we have enough evidence with Mcnabb that we won’t win with him

I don’t. I think he’s been given ONE Super Bowl-worthy team, which he led to the Super Bowl and lost to the best team of the decade at its peak.

I’ll hear arguments that they were the NFC’s best team the year they lost to Tampa Bay. After the Super Bowl, that one stings most.

The teams that lost to St. Louis, Carolina and Arizona overachieved … if anything we should be singing McNabb’s praises for getting those teams as far as they got.

I mean, honestly, what is this evidence that McNabb CAN’T win a big game? What do you suppose would have become of the Denver Broncos had they used that same logic with Elway?

Put a Super Bowl-quality team around McNabb. If it becomes apparent that not playing Kolb is the only thing holding the team back, then make the switch. But blaming McNabb for not leading pretty good teams to the championships seems silly.

And why would you be so eager to risk going back to “square one” when we’re so close and there’s nothing forcing us to take that risk?

Still waiting for the Eagles to Bring It Home For Jerome

by D3Keith on Feb 17, 2010 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

on a good note

I think that this coming year we have the chance to be the most all-around talented team in the Reid era. Offense has weapons, defense has some stars… it could all come together very nicely this year.

by Alon on Feb 18, 2010 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

"put a superbowl quality team around him"

Haha that is so funny. He had ample opportunity to succeed and he’s come up short. He’s had a defense that could carry any team to the superbowl. Brady won it throwing to absolute nobodys (other than Branch). 11 years is more then enough evidence. When he win its because of Mcnabb, and when we lose its because the team is not good enough. Please. Mcnabb is not this “top 10” qb messiah you guys claim him to be, hes inaccurate, holds the ball way too long, was never a WCO QB, and kills multiple drives.

by Team Serbia on Feb 18, 2010 8:59 AM EST up reply actions  

one SB worthy team?

dude we got the CG 5 times. Most of those games he played like shit

E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!

by Joe_D on Feb 24, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Similarly...

…everyone is a virgin until he has sex for the first time…or everyone is a vegeterian until he has meat for the first time. The anti-McNabb contingent is confused about even the simplest philosophical concepts.

...But if he pulls the rug on his quarterback, Reid must do it knowing that he let McNabb down more than McNabb ever let him down.

Phil Sheridan--Philadelphia Inquirer

by EvilBanner on Feb 17, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Well we can’t pay for a superbowl like you paid to lose your virginity EB…

I’m kidding of course.

by Team Serbia on Feb 18, 2010 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Huge contradiction

First you say, “He’s never thrown more TD’s than INT’s in a playoff game.”

Check the Arizona stats. 3 TD. 1 INT. Last time I checked, 3>1.

And you are just taking 7 games he lost. It sure is convenient to leave out the playoff games he won isn’t it? You leave the Giants game, a year in which they outmatched us at every significant position, which was also a divisional playoff game, and leave out the Falcons game? How about 4th and 26? He outplayed one of the best qb’s ever.

Some of the criticisms you make are valid, I’ll give you that. But if you’re going to manipulate statistics like this you’re better off not using them

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Feb 16, 2010 10:38 PM EST reply actions  

haha...

I’m way ahead of you tanman, look at my first comment on this post.

by Route36 on Feb 16, 2010 11:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Haha yeah you right

Anyway what’s the harm in mentioning it twice? It is a pretty big error

GO CUSE, BLUE, AND EAGLES!

by tanman5 on Feb 16, 2010 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

No harm whatsoever. lol

by Route36 on Feb 16, 2010 11:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

No no no you forgot yet another loophole

in the event of a mckolb debate McNabb’s halfway decent games get throw out and we make rash judgements..

No but really whoopie he had 1 important game with more TD’s than INT’s.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 17, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Not true.

He had one important game that he lost with more TD’s than INT’s. He had plenty important games he won with more TD’s than INT’s though. Why, all of the sudden, are the final playoff games being considered the only important playoff games? Had he beaten the Cardinals last year would that have become a non-important game? What about the Cowboys this year? Why are the playoff wins not also important? It just doesn’t make sense. I get the “most-important” argument, but it’s ridiculously flawed. Every playoff game is the mot important of the year unless you win it. So really, he has won more important games (and played well in them too) than he has lost.

by NOLACuse on Feb 17, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

lol, im kidding..

refer to the loophole lol.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 17, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

So with all this negativity

Can the Vikes pick him up off you guys for a third round draft pick?
 
I mean you state he’s terrible, he only has a year left on his contract. So it seems like we’re being generous with a third round pick.

It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...

by Grime on Feb 17, 2010 1:32 PM EST reply actions  

If Mcnabb is going somewhere

It will be before the Eagles owe him a bonus, which is march 5th i believe? and we all know drama queen favre won’t give his answer so early.

by Team Serbia on Feb 17, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

May 5th i thought. 5/5 for #5

If you dont like Big Red, then F#%@ You!
-Ricky Bobby

by GreenInBaltimore on Feb 17, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Could be, not sure on the exact date

but either way, Favre isn’t talking before then.

by Team Serbia on Feb 17, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

March 5th is the end of the current CBA … maybe that’s what you were thinking of … although it may be the same day beginning of the new league year.

Jim Johnson 1941-2009

"The 0-2 pitch, swing and a miss! STRUCK HIM OUT! The Philadelphia Phillies are 2008 World Champions of baseball! And let the city celebrate! " - Harry Kalas 1936-2009

by Whodie126 on Feb 17, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

march 5th

that’s the first day of free agency….

"Eagles fans are a passionate group who love their team," said McNabb, "if not the actual players. It's not like winning a Super Bowl before the first month of the season is the hardest thing they've ever asked of me. That'd be all those times they asked me to go kill myself."

by greenbean#twoOH on Feb 17, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I walked out of the house this morning.
It only snows in Baltimore 3 times per year.
I didnt see the ice.
I slipped and fell.
I am never leaving my house again, because it is too risky.

Or is my sample size too small?

If you dont like Big Red, then F#%@ You!
-Ricky Bobby

by GreenInBaltimore on Feb 17, 2010 4:09 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

well played.

Jim Johnson 1941-2009

"The 0-2 pitch, swing and a miss! STRUCK HIM OUT! The Philadelphia Phillies are 2008 World Champions of baseball! And let the city celebrate! " - Harry Kalas 1936-2009

by Whodie126 on Feb 17, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

… I hope you’re alright …

by Smitty2K3 on Feb 17, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Very nice.

The sarcasm I meant, not the fall. Hope you’re ok.

by NOLACuse on Feb 17, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

We have to quit harping on what McNabb did in the past too

I get it, he USED to be a top 10 qb, I guess you could argue top 5. I also get, the defense didnt play lights out EVERY single game. But how many times are we going to see it?

He gets uncomfortable/nervous, then starts hanging onto the ball and looking downfield for the big play. He skips the ball to an open WR trying to get rid of the ball quickly, didn’t run for it when in the past he would’ve, etc… Say what you want about the past, he’s not as good as he once was.

E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!

by Joe_D on Feb 17, 2010 4:11 PM EST reply actions  

i dont knwo that anyone is arguing that fact. Certainly 27 yr old McNabb was better then the current 34 year old McNabb.
But is the 34 year old McNabb the better option for the Eagles to win in 2010 than the 24 year old Kolb.

If you dont like Big Red, then F#%@ You!
-Ricky Bobby

by GreenInBaltimore on Feb 17, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Not at all

Kolb is the future, Mcnabb is a lame duck next year with 1 yr left on his contract

E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!

by Joe_D on Feb 17, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe, maybe not

But its one more year wasted on Kolb. In all seriousness, our team is verrrrrry young. Maybe even too young. It’d be difficult to expect them to play disciplined, veteran football in january when all of our players (especially our skill players) are young. Personally, I don’t think there is a big drop off from Mcnabb to Kolb, because I don’t feel Mcnabb is as good as people make him out to be right now (outside of the top 10). Kolb has the potential to be even better since his game is more suited for a WCO. We need to get Kolb a rapport with the whole team so that when Desean, Maclin, Mccoy, Celek, etc hit their true stride and enter their prime, Kolb is on page with them.

Maybe we don’t win the SB with Kolb next year, but then its an investment for 2011+. Not to mention the draft pick we would acquire with Mcnabb.

by Team Serbia on Feb 17, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I love how much work you put into this, but a couple things really hurt it for me.

1. The small sample size and arbitrary choice to make the final playoff game of each season the only important one. I get the “most important” argument, but it’s tragically flawed. If the Eagles lose to the Falcons that year, that is the most important game, but because we won (a good thing) it becomes irrelevant? Such a flawed logic I can barely move past it.

2) Factual mistakes. There were really only two I spotted, but they’re still important. The first is calling the Rams the Cardinals in your stats rundown. Maybe because Kurt Warner led the team, not sure. Not a big deal, but anyway. The second was claiming McNabb has never thrown more TD’s than INT’s in the “most important” game of the season. Also not true. Against the Cardinals last year he threw 3 TD’s and 1 INT. But this goes back to my problem with your arbitrary choice of which games are important. In all the other playoff games (those that he won) he failed to throw more TD’s than INT’s only twice. So truth be told, in the most important game of the season (to that point or, every single playoff game) McNabb has thrown more TD’s than INT’s half of the time. (Out of 16 playoff games, 8 of them featured more TD’s than INT’s.) And if we throw in the Dallas game last year, which was basically a playoff game and therefore the most important game of the year (to that point) he has thrown more TD’s than INT’s in 9 of the most important games of the season.

Basically, I’m on the “don’t use statistics if you are only going to bastardize them” bandwagon.

by NOLACuse on Feb 17, 2010 6:53 PM EST reply actions  

Still don't know how much McNabb gets

The other flip side of the coin is just how much McNabb gets you in a trade. Can’t imagine the Eagles moving their “franchise QB” for only a package that is highlighted by a 2nd round pick this year.

by MG77 on Feb 17, 2010 11:16 PM EST reply actions  

Wow Nice Work! Seriously

I get you and understand you and am even tempted to get on board, but I’m too old and can still smell the truly stinking Philadelphia Eagles of the past to jade this generally successful bunch. Jeff Laurie, Evil Joe Banner lol, Andy Reid and Donovan McNabb are all the best at their jobs (wins and losses wise) than any previous Eagle. I have to keep them all.
The Eagles are a perennial winner with Donovan McNabb et al and last year was a successful rebuilding year. I’m just not ready to go back to the 16 years of bad Eagles in the 60’s and 70’s, nor the Marion Campbell mediocre dogs of the mid 80’s, nor the Rich Kotite fraud of the early/mid 90’s and the flash and crash Ray Roades. I’m keeping Andy and Don until they start losing regularly. This tandem has to be a loser 2 years in a row before I’m calling to pull the plug. I know what bad is. It ain’t Don and Andy.

by Lombardi and Broad on Feb 18, 2010 9:52 AM EST reply actions  

Since so many of us are young

We truly do not know The Failuredelphia Eagles like you old heads. Sometimes we completely get lost that without the FO we have in place, or their picks, or their coaching that we could easily become the 5-11, 3-14 of yesterday. I for one am happy that we compete every year and I know with the right tweaks we can and will get that Lombardi. I hope people understand how much worse it could be. We have a known quantity in McNabb and Reid at the helm and I know that with that one break we will be hoisting our own trophy soon enough.

"Life's a bitch, but God forbid the bitch divorce me" Nas

"Your penis fits me just perfectly" My Ex Girlfriend

by Talon Talent on Feb 19, 2010 7:28 AM EST up reply actions  

McNabb's stats

Someone asked what McNabb’s stats were in playoff games he was the QB and the Eagles won.

He is 190 of 300 for 15 TD and 6 Int.

What surprised me the most about these figures is the 63.3% comp which is 3% above his career average. So I looked a little closer for you.

His best game was in 2007 against the Vikes when he went 24 of 33, other good games are 21 of 33 and 20 of 30. This is offset by games of 21 of 39 and 22 of 40.

In games McNabb has won he averages 21 of 33 and in games he lost he averages 40 of 22.

So what does that tell us – not alot really as teams that lose often pass more and complete a lower % of passes.

The only game that McNabb has really rallied you to a win is the Packers game where you fell behind 14-0. McNabb was 21 of 39 that game but did run for 100 yards.

So in conclusion and most probably like a lot of QB’s McNabb plays well when wining which has been achieved by a fast start and getting a lead, but when you fall behind he has only been able to rally you to one win (Packers) and get to a tie once (Cardinals).

by G Fan in England on Feb 18, 2010 4:48 PM EST reply actions  

mcnabb sucks he's a choke artist...

do you want him, he comes cheap all I want is a donut.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 18, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

lol "not from elmo"

is at peace with the fact that i am a DICK.... i am good at it.... it is what i do.... it defines who i am.... will i be hated?? most definitely... do i care?? hell no...

by Udalango on Feb 18, 2010 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I was kidding, being sarcastic...

but I really dont want McNabb, we should trade him.

thats Cobb on Kolb crime if you ask me... as said by yophillybro

"I'm trading Kolb to Buffalo for Cribbs"- the brilliant Trade Kolb

by wild_eagle on Feb 18, 2010 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Silly

I don’t no where to start. There’s a lot of talk about the QB position, LB, DB’s, and DE. Personally I think the O-Line has been horrible for a long time. Besides Andy’s pass first offense. The offensive line can’t open a hole. We picked up Vick to run QB sneaks what does that say about the offense? Press coverage “Pass.” Please stop it. McNabb was the running game for a number of years. Kolb has played 1 full game. Do you really think that Kolb would with our anemic running game would of pulled off a win against Dallas. I’m tired of the QB silliness. The O Line needs to sustain blocks and open up holes similar to what Indy/NO or there is no chance that anyone can lead this team deep into the playoffs or to a Super Bowl.

by Seee on Feb 18, 2010 8:17 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

He's had 2 full starts

and yes, many other teams are getting it done with a pass happy team. so yes, he w ill do fine as long as he keeps completing 65% of his passes and does it with consistency

E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!

by Joe_D on Feb 24, 2010 8:57 AM EST up reply actions  

one of the other things that sucks in this post, is that a team that is losing is going to need to pass more, if not all, of the time. that puts a lot more on the QB. In this “analysis” you chose all the games he lost, and then put sole blame on him.

If you dont like Big Red, then F#%@ You!
-Ricky Bobby

by GreenInBaltimore on Feb 19, 2010 11:04 AM EST reply actions  

who cares about the past

The fact is he is OLD, and his skills are DECLINING! Yes, his 2004 run was miraculous, that was SIX years ago when he was in his PRIME. For those of you who dont want to go back int he dark ages, would you rather watch us be a 9-7 or 10-6 team thats going to get bounced hard in the playoffs after mcnabb has one of his games with a ton of 3 and outs? I don’t, let’s take the risk, we’ve been grooming this kid for 3 yeras now

E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!

by Joe_D on Feb 24, 2010 8:59 AM EST reply actions  

No way. I'm sticking with McNabb and trying to move towards a "get him

support" strategy. QB’s a lot worse then McNabb have won Super Bowls. Plus, it’s a pretty mute argument. They are staunch on keeping Don in 2010. Kolb may get a chance this season if McNabb is injured. I’m not even sure Vick is leaving. Somebody better get a #1 draft pick ready to give to the Eagles. It’s not an argument of whether Vick is worth a #1, but it’s about what is not available in the free agency market or the draft at the QB position. Vick is the best at this point and that equals a #1.

by Lombardi and Broad on Feb 27, 2010 7:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Really

Vick is less accurate than McNabb and it is being argued that McNabb is not worth a first so I would like you to support your arguement that Vick is worth a first and nothing less.

by G Fan in England on Mar 1, 2010 8:53 AM EST up reply actions  

quick reply

“Seven times Donovan McNabb has played the biggest game of the Eagles postseason. Seven times he has lost. "

For John Elway it was eight. Then they won the Super Bowl twice.

by medicineball on Feb 24, 2010 10:02 PM EST reply actions  

Mcnabb has better career passing numbers than Elway in pretty much every category. Higher completion pct(59 – 56), higher TD-INT ratio(2.2 – 1.3) and higher QB rating(86.5 – 80). If Mcnabb plays 16 seasons like Elway, he will also easily pass his 51,475 passing yards. Elway didn’t win his first Super bowl until his 15th season when Terrell Davis happened. To be fair, Mcnabb still has 5 more seasons to match Elway in the Super bowl department.

Bye 36, you will be missed...

by Route36 on Feb 25, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure

There are more QB’s who haven’t won a superbowl after their first 11 years. Elway is one exception, and while you don’t rule anything out you still play the odds.

by Team Serbia on Feb 26, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

You cannot compare

Elway and McNabb’s stats as they played in different decades and with different rules.

Elway’s stats when he played were considered elite stats. Go and look up Marino’s or Kelly’s stats and you will say hey McNabb is better than those two….If McNabb played in the 80’s he would struggle to complete 50% of his passes if he can only complete 60% now.

If you are going to compare McNabb use QB’s in the same decade which will be Peyton, Brees, Warner and Brady. McNabb is close to Brady in some stats and no where near the others.

by G Fan in England on Mar 1, 2010 8:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Time to move on

For the most part, pretty accurate. The game rundown is all too familiar and very frustrating because it does happen over and over. If McNabb had never won one playoff game then i would agree that he’d never won “the biggest game of the year.” But, he has been to 5 NFC Champ. games and one SuperBowl and you don’t get that far without winning a couple of “Big Games”. With that said, I do think it’s time for a change. Week after week, it’s pass, run, pass. A new offensive co. with fresh ideas would be a big help and a quarterback with a little finesse wouldn’t hurt either. Whatever happens though, I will always bleed green.

by steevie on Feb 27, 2010 7:22 AM EST reply actions  

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