Where have you gone Reggie Brown?
by JasonB on Dec 1, 2008 6:00 AM EST
in News
48 comments
Chris Collinsworth made a point of mentioning several times Thanksgiving night that the Eagles told him they would be rotating WRs less that night than in other games. They felt that the rotating of WRs was making it hard to get a rythm on offense.
Collinsworth said the Eagles would stick primarily with Desean Jackson and Kevin Curtis on the field all game with other guys rotating in at 3 and 4. However, there was as little rotating at the 3 and 4 spots as there was at 1 and 2. Quite clearly, Jason Avant and Hank Baskett were the 3 and 4 WRs.
Reggie Brown was no where to be seen. Neither was Greg Lewis... but who cares?
The fact that Brown was relegated to the bench is interesting. It's not surprising that he isn't starting over Curtis or Jackson, I think we al can see that those guys are better players than Brown. However, to see him fall down the depth chart below guys who used to be his backups is a surprise. There's no doubt that based simply on how the WRs have performed this year, Baskett and Avant deserve to be ahead of Brown.
It's hard to figure where Brown's place on the team is right now. Curtis and Jackson are the starters and that shouldn't be changing for quite a while. At least in the case of Jackson, he should be the starter here for many years. The other WRs have clear roles and attributes they can hang their hat on.
Hank Baskett is the biggest WR on the team. We've seen him work in the end zone and get on the end of the fade pass a few times and we've seen him make several tough catches this year.
Jason Avant probably has the best hands on the team. He's not our fastest WR, in fact he's probably the slowest, but he goes over the middle and catches anything thrown his way. Every team needs that kind of tough, move the chains type of WR. He'll never be a star or gamebreaker but a guy that find a hole in coverage and make a tough first down catch over the middle will always be an important role player here.
So what can Reggie hang his hat on? He's not a big WR, but he's not small either. He's not an incredibly speedy WR, but he isn't slow. He has had suspect hands at times and has been drop prone. Andy Reid said Reggie's absence against Arizona was simply a case of things being "too diluted"
"I know people have said we don't have a lot of good receivers. I think a little bit different from that. Right now, we've got a lot of good receivers," Reid said. "The problem is we had to back off on some guys so that we could get our timing back in the pass game.
"This is a timing passing game, a precision passing game, and we were rotating so many guys in there that it didn't give the quarterback and wide receivers an opportunity to get on the same page and get enough reps in practice. So as good a player as Reggie is, we cut back his reps a little bit. That doesn't mean Reggie can't play or won't be a factor in these games. But it was just so we could tighten things up a little bit in the passing game. Things were getting too diluted there."
So does Andy think the pass game will get rolling again and he go back to playing whatever WRs he wants at any time? Or will he get wise to the fact that letting guys flourish in a certain role isn't a bad idea?
What is Reggie Brown's future with this team? Will the former second round pick simply be a Greg Lewis type spare part for years, will he be the player that caught 8 TDs in 2006 again, or will he be somewhere else?
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This is just another decision or adjustment that comes a little too late.
by BFH on Dec 1, 2008 9:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’ll second that
World F*ckin' Champions, indeed...
by foos05 on Dec 1, 2008 10:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
fleaflicker league dammit. check it.
by JGCarraway on Dec 1, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
home computer is el-fucko-ed for the time being… it’s firewalled at work
World F*ckin' Champions, indeed...
by foos05 on Dec 1, 2008 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well, that sucks.
you’re still in the playoff hunt by the way.
also: page 2 is hilarious on espn today:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=gallo/081201&sportCat=nfl
by JGCarraway on Dec 1, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
tough sometimes… I live in Scranton, work in Bethlehem all day, then teach night classes in Hazleton and some other places like 3 nights a week… time is tough to come by to fix shit. If I get a chance tonight, I’m going to tear apart my comp and replace the power supply. If all goes well I’ll get on briefly tonight.
you have a trade proposal on there for me i take it
World F*ckin' Champions, indeed...
by foos05 on Dec 1, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
naw, i don’t. just thought i’d let you know you have a good shot of making the playoffs with one week in the regular season.
by JGCarraway on Dec 1, 2008 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ahh… thanks man… like i said, hopefully tonight I can lay into the comp a bit. classes are on break and we’re back from Thanksgiving
World F*ckin' Champions, indeed...
by foos05 on Dec 1, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brown may or may not be here
It depends on what we do with FA and the draft at the WR spot. While I dont think WR is a problem I wouldnt mind getting Boldin. The dude is BIG, strong, fast and loves to block. That a PERFECT combination for the WCO.
by Joe_D on Dec 1, 2008 10:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Boldin isn't going anywhere
Keep dreaming.
by Andrew B on Dec 1, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Downtown Reggie Brown
I would love Boldin too but I don’t think it’s happening. Or maybe I just don’t want to get my hopes up like I did for Fitzgerald last year…
I see Reggie getting traded. Maybe to Minnesota. And probably for a very low draft pick. I don’t know how much he’s still owed, but I believe it’s a bit. I think he’s obviously bottomed out since 2006 and a strong four man rotation works better, making him obsolete.
by ajay on Dec 1, 2008 10:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
no trade
and i hate how every single person on this team that isnt playing well(at the time) is all of the sudden going to Minnesota. Does evrybody thing that Bard wants all Andys garbage. its better to release him when we can so we dont get the extra cap hits. why wait and try to get a 4th or a 5th so we can draft a guard or a linebacker that will get cut before the season anyway. there is a time period where we can drop him without paying him the money for 2009 but still ow him whats left of 2008
by NickPampani on Dec 1, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well he traded for Billy McMullen and signed Thomas Tapeh… so maybe he does want our trash.
by JasonB on Dec 1, 2008 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
tapeh was actualy good and McMullen was in his second year, looked pretty promising and didnt we trade him for an undrafted rookie. i though we got baskett
by NickPampani on Dec 1, 2008 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
Tapeh or McMullen were ever good, but Reggie at least put up two very good years. If Minnesota was interested in the first two, they surely would be interested in Reggie.
by ajay on Dec 1, 2008 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For anyone who is wondering — Brown’s contract situation (it actually goes through 2014 technically).
2009: Cap Value: $3 mil ($5.9 mil dead money if cut)
2010: Cap Value: $3 mil ($3.5 mil dead money if cut)
2011: Cap Vluae: $2.8 mil ($1.7 mil dead money if cut)
I don’t see the Eagles dropping him, anyway — even if the money situation was a little different in ‘08. Unless he becomes a distraction. Trade is always an option, but don’t expect much of anything in return.
It’s baffling to see what has become of him after the start of his career. Like LJ, we thought he could be a stud. But again like LJ, he’s become a replacement level player.
I suspect he’ll be kept next season as depth. But if he’s asked to play special teams and he turns out to be terrible at it or gives no effort, anything is possible.
by BFH on Dec 1, 2008 11:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it looks like he’s pretty much guaranteed to be here at least another year.
I’m fine with that. I don’t necessarily want to get rid of him. If we brought in another WR, REggie would just push Greg Lewis off the roster and he’d have another year to maybe redeem himself. If he doesn’t, oh well.
by JasonB on Dec 1, 2008 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I concur. About the only reason I could see for them letting him go is if he becomes too unhappy to manage, or if some team makes a trade offer they can’t refuse (unlikely, but there are a lot of stupid GM’s out there).
by BFH on Dec 1, 2008 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Point
At some point do you blame the coaching because guys like Smith and Brown hit a wall and don’t develop the way we expect, or did we just overhype them in the first place?
by ajay on Dec 1, 2008 11:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way — for anyone who has never seen it — the best resource for Eagles’ salary data:
by BFH on Dec 1, 2008 11:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
P.S.
Is that site correct that Dan Klecko makes 10 million dollars this year, or is that a typo?
by ajay on Dec 1, 2008 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The 10 million figure is correct, but that’s not actually what they are paying him. It’s a combination of weird bonuses and unattainable incentives.
You will never hear me argue with “Joe Banner is a salary cap magician.”
by BFH on Dec 1, 2008 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I believe it’s all part of an LTBE (likely to be earned) bonus. Which in this case, is a complete lie. It all counts against this season’s cap, and technicalities in the system will actually grant the Eagles MORE money to spend (raise their cap) next season because they didn’t pay out this year’s LBTE bonuses.
http://www.eaglescap.com/analyzingCBA.html
The guy running eaglescap.com does an excellent job with this stuff. It’s not easy reading, but you won’t find a better resource than his site.
by BFH on Dec 1, 2008 12:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Oops, that should be under the Klecko discussion. The LTBE stuff does not apply to Reggie.
by BFH on Dec 1, 2008 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But wait a second..
According to the Eagles’ website, Reggie is still the starter! Please note my sarcasm, and then also note how the site managed to swap out Jordan with Gaither on that same depth chart.
I know its not a big deal… I just found it interesting.
Looking Mean in Kelly Green
by goodfella46er on Dec 1, 2008 7:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Reggie Brown
When Reggie Brown was given a chance this year, he performed fine. In the Bears and Redskins games he had 10 catches on 16 pass attempts for 163 yards. In the Seahawks game, he had the 1 catch for a 22 yard TD. Other than that, he’s only been thrown the ball 6 times in the Giants, Bengals and Ravens games.
Reggie cannot perform or develop or anything else if he isn’t on the field playing.
As to Reggie Brown being without talent or just not very good, only someone who didn’t watch him in the two Redskins games and the two Giants games, and the Cardinals game in 2005 as a rookie, or the 49ers to the Bucs game in 2006 when he started without Stallworth, or in the winning streak with Garcia in 2006, or after the bye last year would say that.
Reggie has had one stretch of bad games to start last year, plus a handful of other bad games here and there like the 2005 Monday night disaster against Dallas, or the 2006 Jaguars and Titans games, the 2007 Dolphins game, and the 2008 Bengals games. Except for the bizzarre 2007 Lions blowout, these have all been games where McNabb was either injured in the game, playing while recovering from injury, or where McNabb just plain all around sucked. This year has been an injury plagued disaster of a season for him. I’d really hesitate to blame Reggie for anything coming out of most of those games.
He obviously can play. His career numbers in just over three seasons worth of games are clear enough – 173 catches on 320 attempts for 2508 yards, 17 touchdowns, 11 interceptions (2 of which are on Mike McMahon and 3 on AJ Feeley), 20 of 54 games with 70+ yards. That’s more than Todd Pinkston accomplished in 5 full seasons.
by Andrew B on Dec 1, 2008 11:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Andrew B — I disagree, wholeheartedly. Reggie has always been a replacement level wide out and I really think you’re stretching to try and prove otherwise.
From Football Outsiders:
2005: Catch Rate (54), DVOA (-5.4, 57th in the NFL), DYAR (46, 57th in the NFL)
2006: Catch Rate (50), DVOA (-3.6, 55th in the NFL), DYAR (66, 56th in the NFL)
2007: Catch Rate (55), DVOA (-7.3, 66th in the NFL), DYAR (47, 61st in the NFL)
He hasn’t gotten any better this year, obviously.
And let me remind you that the FO formula’s LOVE the Eagles offense.
by BFH on Dec 2, 2008 7:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just to compare with Curtis’ numbers is his first season in the Eagles’ offense
2007: Catch Rate (57), DVOA (5.1, 37th in the NFL), DYAR (195, 22nd in the NFL)
The biggest problem with Brown is that he’s not gotten any better. He’s never made “the leap”. He is capable of playing in the NFL, but at this point it’s hard to argue it will ever be at a high level. He is perfectly capable of being a 3rd wide receiver on a good team.
by BFH on Dec 2, 2008 8:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
McNabb (and Kolb)’s passer rating to:
Baskett (08) – 119.2
Brown (08) – 98.5
Avant (08) – 88.4
Lewis (080 – 83.2
Curtis (08) – 57.2
Which one stands out?
by Andrew B on Dec 2, 2008 10:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot Jackson
Jackson (08) – 84.7 passer rating for McNabb and Kolb
This number would be much higher were it not for the 6 interceptions on balls targeted to Jackson. I would expect a vast improvement in that number next year.
by Andrew B on Dec 2, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Replacement Level
BFH:
Replacement level means roughly whether the guy is starter material or not. There are 64 starting wideout spots in the NFL. Reggie Brown was within that range of the top 64 guys by the FO measurements every year he was a starter.
Also, the FO stats are limited by excluding playoff performance. Brown was 10 of 16 for 149 yards in the 2006 playoffs, numbers which would have raised his catch rate to 54% and probably raised his DVOA and DYAR as well.
Reggie Brown is a guy who is going to get you 800-1000 yards, 50-70 catches, 14 yards per catch, 55% catch rate, 5-10 touchdowns over any given 16 game stretch. If that’s our #2 wideout, its the best damn #2 wideout we’ve had at any time during the Andy Reid era.
by Andrew B on Dec 2, 2008 10:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
C’mon, you’re cherry picking to find something that backs up your argument.
’08 has been screwy for a lot of reasons. Judging Curtis this season is not fair and you know that.
Brown had 3 years of relative good health (‘05, ’06, ’07) and he’s been average at best. Would you actually want him playing before Jackson, Curtis, or Baskett?
If he’s not one of the 3 best receivers on this freaking team, what does that say about him?
Again, he’s mediocre NFL receiver. The stats back that up. On a team with serious talent at WR he’s a #3. You can use him as a #2, but don’t expect huge productivity.
by BFH on Dec 2, 2008 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I do want Brown playing before Baskett.
Baskett is a real boom or bust type receiver in the game’s he’s started. He’s had really good games (06 Cowboys 1st game, 06 Falcons game, 08 Rams game, 08 Steelers game), and then he’s had starts where he is invisible (06 49ers, 06 Saints, 06 Bucs, 08 Cowboys, 08 Bears, 08 49ers). Its the difference between going 24 of 33 for 514 yards, 4 TD, 0 INT and going 6 of 16 for 58 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT. Despite 115 career targets, Baskett has never had an intermediate length touchdown (~15-30 yards). Its all either really long broken-field plays or short goal-to-go situations.
Brown is simply more consistent. He’s never had a 90 yard touchdown, but he’s also never had a game where he went 0 for 6 with 1 interception on completions to targets.
by Andrew B on Dec 2, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, on my quiet little corner of the web I’ve been campaigning for Baskett for the last two months, I know how productive and efficient he is.
by BFH on Dec 2, 2008 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Baskett
Look, I like Baskett a lot, but I think he is a situational type guy right now, which means he is a 3rd or 4th receiver on gameday. I think he’s shown he can be a redzone guy, a 3rd down guy, a blocker on running plays, and a longball guy.
During his careeer, his rolling 16 game averages where he had at least one pass target have been 20-35 receptions, 35-50 targets, 300-500 yards, 1-4 TD, 0-2 INT, 50-75% completions. To compare to Avant, he has similar numbers in all areas except Baskett has more yards thanks to his long TD catches, while Avant never went below 60% completions because he was not targeted for many deep throws.
by Andrew B on Dec 2, 2008 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good discussion. I like Baskett for a number of reasons. The most important in my mind is that he’s the only Eagles’ wideout to present multiple problems for a defense. He has size, strength, and enough speed to worry about.
That’s a big deal in important situations — like big 3rd downs with a one on one matchup and in the red zone.
Take these stats as you will, from Football Outsiders:
Baskett: Catch Rate (65), DVOA (23.3), DYAR (124)
Jackson: Catch Rate (54), DVOA (-7.6), DYAR (34)
Avant: Catch Rate (56), DVOA (-6.2), DYAR (17)
Brown: Catch Rate (52), DVOA (-7.6), DYAR (13)
Curtis: Catch Rate (50), DVOA (-26.5), DYAR (-57)
Lewis: Catch Rate (57), DVOA (2.6%), DYAR (35)
As I said before, not a fair year to judge Curtis. In an offense built on timing and rhythm, being out for preseason games and the first half of the season is a recipe for disaster. His number last year were good.
Baskett isn’t just the best receiver by their metrics, he’s blowing them out of the water.
by BFH on Dec 2, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Prior to this season all discussion of Baskett was simply hopeful. Now he’s actually proving to be quite productive. He needs to be on the field in virtually all three wide receiver sets.
In an offense built around midgets (Westbrook, Jackson, Curtis), this guy could be a vital piece.
by BFH on Dec 2, 2008 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brown too
Brown was also out most of the pre-season and has gone down twice with his hamstring injury this season (start of season, and then around week 6). How is it fair to judge him either, especially with his more limited opportunities?
by Andrew B on Dec 2, 2008 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that this year is also unfair to judge Brown due to injuries and limited opportunity. That’s why I didn’t include his 2008 statistics in my early morning post.
by BFH on Dec 2, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A correction:
Brown had 10.6% DVOA in 2006, 20th in the league.
So he has low #1/high #2 potential.
by Andrew B on Dec 2, 2008 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where did you get that? I am staring at my 2008 Pro Football Prospectus.
2006: 16 games, 46 receptions on 92 passes, 50% catch rate.
-3.6% DVOA (55th in the NFL)
66 DYAR (56th in NFL)
by BFH on Dec 2, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr2006
86-R.Brown PHI 174 22 165 24 10.9% 21 9.7% 92 816 857 8 50%
Its obviously a typo in the book. The 2007 FP shows him at 14.4%, and that is prior to the 2nd order revision to DVOA.
by Andrew B on Dec 2, 2008 10:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
by BFH on Dec 3, 2008 7:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
reggie brown
i like, avant /jackson / baskett / curtis/ better that reggie brown- i think they are better , but thats my opnion and iam entitled to it … besides i dont think the eagles want to pay someone millions to have a [ stretch of bad games ] + [plus a handful of other bad games here and there ] seems to me hes injuried alot and drops the pass he should of caught, reggie brown hasnt been able to get the job done . also unfair to compare avant / baskett ..etc.. yards stats to browns / they dont get the playing time on the field that he gets or i guess i should say he has gotten , didnt curtis due better than brown last year ?
i was about to jump off of wachovia center but one of akers’ kicks smacked me right in the face and knocked me backwards…
by EAGLE_MAN71 on Dec 2, 2008 5:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thank you, SportsDork.com
I’ve been a fan of Hank Baskett’s and wonder why he doesn’t get the ball more.
I do agree with goodfella46er… the depth chart on the Eagles website still shows Reggie Brown as a starter and Hank as third string. Yet it does show the demotion of Gaither for Jordan so the site is current. Things are getting curiouser.
I’m actually fine with Brown staying on the team (although not as a starter as listed).. It’s Lewis that I’d petition to get rid of. Someone should give Brad Childress a call and ask him to take him off our hands. Isn’t that where all Eagle refuse goes now?
by JJinPA on Dec 3, 2008 2:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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